From: "Joseph Mendenhall" <josephm@uti.com>
Newsgroups: alt.uu.lang.russian.misc
References: <0EA36.2157$wi3.765414@news.uswest.net> <92ndrs$7dg1q$1@ID-32180.news.dfncis.de>
Subject: Re: Can anyone tell me what this means?
Message-ID: <o0J36.1132$CE.126677@news.uswest.net>
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 09:31:56 -0600

Thank you very much for your efforts.
I have heard rumors that some of my family were from cossacks.
Perhaps this explains the military orientation.
However, as you pointed Ukranian may be different.
This region changed hands several times Austria/Poland/Ukraine.
My internet search found a Marion Okopny in Germany.
Do you have any in your telephone directory?
Again, thanks for the information and the insight.

Mark

Roman Sotnikov <rsotnik@freenet.de> wrote in message
news:92ndrs$7dg1q$1@ID-32180.news.dfncis.de...
> Hi Mark,
>
> I'll try to answer somehow your questions, but, as you wrote your
> grandfather came from
> Ukraine, please take  into account that I'll be answering as a native
> Russian speaker.
> That is, some Ukrainian nuances could be expected to exist, though I'm not
> that sure in this case.
>
> So in Russian "okopnyj" [ak'opnîj] is an adjective meaning something of or
> pertaining to "okop". In turn, "okop" is a trench (mostly known at least
to
> me in the military
> sense). In German (I live in Germany) it is "ein Schuetzengraben".
>
>  The adjective "okopnyj" is derived from the verb "okopat'" (literally -
to
> dig around) (cf. Germ. ringsum etw. graben) that means something like "to
> dig around
> smth, to surround something by a trench (dug-out ground)
> There is also a reflexive form of the verb, "okopat'sya", i.e. "to dig
> oneself in",  "to surround
> oneself with dug-out ground", etc.
>
> That said, let's look at the fragments you've drawn below .
>
> > ...oba voiska soshlis' i postavili okopnye shity ....
>
> Both of the armies approached each other and set up "trench
> shelters(shields)? (RS - okopnye schity).
>
> I don't know the exact meaning of an"okopnyj schit", to be true, but one
> could guess that it is either a sort of sheltered trench, that is a trench
> with some
> protection over/around it, or a shelter (could be even a row of shields?)
> that is dug
> into (sunken into) ground.
>
> > ... i ukryvshis' za okopnyi shit
> And having hidden themselves behind an "okopnyj schit"
>
> Here it looks like that it's rather a dug-in shelter, than a sheltered
> trench :)
>
>
> > .....Gde tonkuyu tkan' nevesty Pronzaet okopnyj rov .
> Where the bride's subtle (fine) tissue is pierced by the "okopnyj rov".
>
> Here the "okopnyj rov" is a dug-out trench.
>
> The above Russian translation are litteral ones, I'm no professional
> Rus->Engl translator.
> Mark, I hope you've gotten a bit what "okopnyj" means. I'd also like to
add
> that, from my point of view, "okopnyj" has a distinctively military
> connotation
> (cf. okopnaya wojna - trench war(?), Stellungskrieg (Germ)).
>
> Besides, it'd be pretty interesting to search for any specifically
Ukrainian
> meaning of "okopnyj", who knows, maybe there are some.
>
> In the rest, Happy New Year!
>
> Roman
>
>