Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1993 07:11:03 -1000 From: spar@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (al.j.sparling) Message-Id: Organization: AT&T Subject: More beginners questions about stacking Rev II's Hi! Having stumbled into quadline kites, I have changed from an occasional weekend flyer into a fanatic. I am buying two additional Rev II's to stack, my earlier questions about distance between kites have been answered, but I realized that I do not know several important things. 1) How to determine what strength line to use for a particular size stack. 2) Does the pull increase the same amount with each kite added? 3) As I add to the stack, when do I need to worry about the amount of force being transfered to the lead kite? 4) What should I use to tie the kites together? Spectra (sleeved or unsleeved) or bridle material, or something else. As I do not personally know anyone flying a stack of any type of kites, I would appreciate both the answers to the above questions, as well as any advice you would give to someone new to stacking kites. Also, the title of any reference work which discusses these points would be appreciated. Alan Sparling AT&T Enhanced 9-1-1 ALI/DBMS Development ajs@stairs.att.com (708) 224-4242 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1993 16:17:09 -1000 From: jeffy@syrinx.umd.edu (Jeffrey C. Burka) Message-Id: <22i8v5$osu@umd5.umd.edu> Organization: University of Maryland at College Park Subject: Re: More beginners questions about stacking Rev II's In article spar@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (al.j.sparling) writes: >Hi! Having stumbled into quadline kites, I have changed from an occasional >weekend flyer into a fanatic. Amazing how that happens, eh? >1) How to determine what strength line to use for a particular size stack. If your line breaks, it wasn't strong enough. Yeah, yeah, I know, that was a half-assed answer. But I've been amazed at how well the stress is distributed amongst the 4 lines. One day last year, I really wanted to fly my 6'/9' progressive stack. Deciding that the winds were way too high for my usual 80# lines, so I pulled out my 150# set and hooked up. I don't think I've ever been closer to being dragged by that particular stack--I was _really_ straining against the lines. I'd guess the winds were probably around a steady 15mph--not high, but still pretty substantial. It wasn't until I was putting the kites away that I suddenly realized, "Hey, I don't keep my 150's on this kind of winder." A closer look at the line confirmed that I'd been flying on my 80's. I saw TC Powers fly his 6'/7'/8'/9' progressive stack on 80# lines in winds gusting to around 20 or more (Smithsonian '91, for those of you who remember that blustery March day). He was being admittedly careful about lessening the pull (increasing the angle of attack by bringing the tops of the handles way back) during the heavier gusts, and favoring the sides of the window with the stack. But he didn't break a line. I'd guess that in almost all conditions, that 150# line would be ample. >2) Does the pull increase the same amount with each kite added? Basically. But your second kite isn't coming close to doubling the pull of the first kite. >3) As I add to the stack, when do I need to worry about the amount of force > being transfered to the lead kite? Only if the wind is real high. The 4 lines aren't the only stress-relieving feature of the Revolution. That seven point bridle does an amazing job of spreading things out too. As I said, I've flown my 6'/9' stack in some pretty good winds without any problems on the 3-wrap stock Rev II frame. When I built my stack of 3' baby revs, I _did_ increase the diameter of lead kite from .1800 to .1880. However, I fly that stack of 5 kites in winds up to ~40mph (SunFest '92: Tropical Storm Danielle). In comparison to a Rev, though, one might say that I _lowered_ the diameter of the tail kites. >4) What should I use to tie the kites together? Spectra (sleeved or > unsleeved) or bridle material, or something else. Go with something like 80# braided dacron. Marty's suggestion for pre-stretching is a great one: fly a single line kite from the line for a while. You don't need particularly strong lines. With 7 train lines per kite, there's a heck of a lot of strength there (even if with grant a 50# less of strength from knots, those 7 train lines will still support 280 pounds!) Using dacron, you don't need to worry about sleeving all those pieces of lines. NB: take the time to make sure your train lines are exactly even. How well your stack locks in flight depends on it. Jeff -- |Jeffrey C. Burka | "When I look in the mirror, I see a little clearer/ | |SAFH Lite [tm] | I am what I am and you are you too./ Do you like | |jeffy@syrinx.umd.edu | what you see? Do you like yourself?" --N. Cherry | = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 20:37:08 -1000 From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) Message-Id: Organization: /usr/lib/news/organisation References: ,<22i8v5$osu@umd5.umd.edu> ^-illegal reference separator Subject: Re: More beginners questions about stacking Rev II's In article <22i8v5$osu@umd5.umd.edu> jeffy@syrinx.umd.edu (Jeffrey C. Burka) writes: >>1) How to determine what strength line to use for a particular size stack. >If your line breaks, it wasn't strong enough. That's the point Jeff. I'd go further, to say: "If the line breaks, *you* were pulling too hard on it" I now judge line strength not upon the size of the kite (and I fly at both extreems of size), but upon how hard I am planning to pull against it. I regularly fly my 6 10' flexies on anything between 80lb and 800lb spectra (and have gone down to 45lb just to prove the point) Andrew -- Work: gaffer@plx.com Phone: +44 793 614 110 Fax: +44 793 614 297 Play: andrew@tug.com Phone: +44 256 464 912 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1993 10:55:32 -1000 From: jeffy@syrinx.umd.edu (Jeffrey C. Burka) Message-Id: <22mus4$9eb@umd5.umd.edu> Organization: University of Maryland at College Park References: ,<22i8v5$osu@umd5.umd.edu>, ^ ^-illegal reference separator \-illegal reference separator Subject: Re: More beginners questions about stacking Rev II's In article andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) writes: >In article <22i8v5$osu@umd5.umd.edu> jeffy@syrinx.umd.edu (Jeffrey C. Burka) writes: >>>1) How to determine what strength line to use for a particular size stack. >>If your line breaks, it wasn't strong enough. >That's the point Jeff. I'd go further, to say: "If the line breaks, *you* >were pulling too hard on it" It was a glib answer on my part, but one I'll stick by. If you're *comfortably* holding onto a stack (not anchored, not going out of your way to find some object to brace yourself against) and your line breaks before you do (ie, before the kites are pulling so hard that you can't control them or risk injuring yourself) then the lines were too weak. I know you've flown your Stack on 45# spiderline succesfully--we've discussed that before. Therefore that was strong enough line. Why don't you fly solely on that line? Because it's not strong enough to let you do what you want. You have to work the kites and your body very carefully to make sure you don't load up the stress suddenly or allow the kites to pull too hard. I agree with you and Marty and the others who say that you shouldn't go overboard with line strength because there's no point in most circumstances. Likewise, though, don't compromise your own flying skills and desires by choosing a line you'll have to be too careful with. Jeff (who has snapped the 150# train lines connecting a stack of 2 6' Flexis without in any way feeling he was in any risk from the amount of pull generated by the kites) -- |Jeffrey C. Burka | "When I look in the mirror, I see a little clearer/ | |SAFH Lite [tm] | I am what I am and you are you too./ Do you like | |jeffy@syrinx.umd.edu | what you see? Do you like yourself?" --N. Cherry | = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1993 06:03:02 -1000 From: fataq@cc.usu.edu Message-Id: <1993Jul23.100303.70359@cc.usu.edu> Organization: Utah State University References: <22i8v5$osu@umd5.umd.edu>,,<22mus4$9eb@umd5.umd.edu> ^ ^-illegal reference separator \-illegal reference separator Subject: Re: More beginners questions about stacking Rev II's [In article <22mus4$9eb@umd5.umd.edu>, jeffy@syrinx.umd.edu (Jeffrey C. Burka) writes: > In article andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) writes: >>In article <22i8v5$osu@umd5.umd.edu> jeffy@syrinx.umd.edu (Jeffrey C. Burka) writes: >>>>1) How to determine what strength line to use for a particular size stack. >>>If your line breaks, it wasn't strong enough. >> [lots of stuff deleted] > I agree with you and Marty and the others who say that you shouldn't > go overboard with line strength because there's no point in most > circumstances. Likewise, though, don't compromise your own flying > skills and desires by choosing a line you'll have to be too careful > with. > > Jeff > (who has snapped the 150# train lines connecting a stack of 2 6' Flexis > without in any way feeling he was in any risk from the amount of pull > generated Jeff- As a flyer of a stack of 10 Trlbys and using 150# lines, what the hell were you doing? I've got a 6' flexi, recently purchased, and its incredibly smooth. Is there that much difference with two flexis? or was it very severe wind conditions? Just curious- Don Fiesinger FATAQ@cc.usu.edu = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =