Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1993 07:56:10 -1000 From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) Message-Id: Organization: /usr/lib/news/organisation Subject: Re: kite sails for canoeing In article ad853@Freenet.carleton.ca (Ian Wilson) writes: >Is there anyone out there who has used a kite to do this? If so, >what sort of kite is best? [Andrew thinks to himself: this is is where I came in - this is the question on article 1 in rec.kites on tug.com.] There are two ways to use a kite to power a boat. The easy, low-tech way is to use a big sky-hook and go down-wind. A Parafoil is the traditional way to do this, but I would consider a big Tri-D (or parhaps a Cody) and see if I could fit some floats on it to enable it to be launched from the water. The thing that takes you down-wind is drag, not lift, so you may want to adjust the bridle to make the kite fly lower and add lots of junk on the line. On the other hand, you can use a power kite, a custom boat and more skill and go up-wind. Andrew -- Work: gaffer@rec.com Phone: +44 793 614 110 Fax: +44 793 614 297 Play: andrew@tug.com Phone: +44 256 464 912 Interested in kite traction? mail kites@tug.com = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1993 07:11:11 -1000 From: ad853@Freenet.carleton.ca (Ian Wilson) Message-Id: Organization: The National Capital Freenet Subject: kite sails for canoeing canoeing. Is there anyone out there who has used a kite to do this? If so, what sort of kite is best? I had always figured that a parafoil would be best as there are no poles. What are the problems? Is my canoe going to become a dangerously unstable bullet, or is it going to be reasonably easy to control. I would be interested in anything anyone has to say> thanks IW -- = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1993 11:10:18 -1000 From: sritter@umi.com (Sam Ritter x3111) Message-Id: <2cgobq$h0@news.umi.com> Organization: University Microfilms Inc. Subject: Re: kite sails for canoeing In article ad853@Freenet.carleton.ca (Ian Wilson) writes: >canoeing. Is there anyone out there who has used a kite to do this? If so, >what sort of kite is best? I had always figured that a parafoil would be >best as there are no poles. What are the problems? Is my canoe going to >become a dangerously unstable bullet, or is it going to be reasonably easy >to control. I would be interested in anything anyone has to say> >thanks >IW Ian, My guess from my limited traction experience, is that you will not stay dry. Given the size of parafoil that you will need to provide any downwind motion that will be usefull, you will need some sort of larger area to launch it, than in the canoe. If you try some sort of controllable kite and try to do any tacking as tey do in sailing, again you probably will get wet. I am not trying to burst your bubble, but since a canoe is rather unstable, this is my guess. Also do you canoe on rivers, or large lakes? I definitely don't think that this will work canoeing on rivers. Too many trees, banks, overhangs, etc. Like I said this is just a guess. Could you post or email more info about the situation you are planning to attempt this. Probably a better person to answer this would be Andrew Beattie. He's had alot more experience with this than I have, and he has said that he go want to go kiting on the seas. Sounds like he has some ideas what needs to be done. This sounds like big fun, there's just too much that needs to be taken care of before something like that can be done. (support crew, drinking water, Coast Guard permission/problems??, etc.) Good luck in your attemps. Sam sritter@umi.com = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1993 12:49:18 -1000 From: sasaki@das.harvard.edu (Marty Sasaki) Message-Id: <1993Nov18.224918.4461@das.harvard.edu> Organization: Harvard University Subject: Re: kite sails for canoeing >In article ad853@Freenet.carleton.ca (Ian Wilson) writes: >>what sort of kite is best? I had always figured that a parafoil would be >>best as there are no poles. You might want to reconsider using a parafoil. If it gets wet, it is going to be impossible to handle, especially when the cells are full of water. A kite without inflatable cells probably makes more sense. The guy that does water skiing with a power kite uses a kite with sticks. Early experiences with flexifoils proved disasterous when the kites crashed into the water. -- Marty Sasaki Harvard University Sasaki Kite Fabrications sasaki@noc.harvard.edu Network Services Division 26 Green Street 617-496-4320 10 Ware Street Jamaica Plain, MA 02130 Cambridge, MA 02138-4002 phone/fax: 617-522-8546 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1993 21:52:59 -1000 From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) Message-Id: Organization: /usr/lib/news/organisation Subject: Re: kite sails for canoeing I think that it's time to re-tell Peter Lynn's story: >My own kite sailing experiences started relatively recently (Nov 1987) >but by 1992 had covered 26 purpose build prototypes encompassing many >(mostly crazy) forms: Monohulls, planing boards, specially designed >waterskis, catamarans, trimarans, hydrofoilers, etc. To the extent that >negative data is as useful as positive results in the innovation process >I can report solid progress! In retrospect I am lucky to have survived >at least a couple of the spectacular crashes I incurred on the >kitesailers that had the kite lines rigged to their structure rather than >being attached through the operator. Being dragged, submerged while >tangled in the structure of a capsized kite boat hauled by 20 square >metres of two line kite that unaccountably decided at that time to fly >stably, in a 50 km/hr wind could be regarded as a necessary pioneering >risk but I am now very firmly of the view that quick release systems must >be of the "dead man" type that release automatically when you stop doing >something. (I fortunately became disentangled after the first 100 >metres or so, the boat continued for some kilometres up the lake, >through a swamp, through the fringing willow trees and on up the rising >ground till jamming in a rocky crag from which its remains were retrieved, >kite still flying, an hour or so later). Andrew -- Work: gaffer@rec.com Phone: +44 793 614 110 Fax: +44 793 614 297 Play: andrew@tug.com Phone: +44 256 464 912 Interested in kite traction? mail kites@tug.com = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1993 17:12:57 -1000 From: johnsen@eskimo.com (Brian Johnsen) Message-Id: Organization: Sopping Wet Tacos Subject: Re: kite sails for canoeing Ian Wilson wrote: >canoeing. Is there anyone out there who has used a kite to do this? If so, In ten years or so of annual weeklong canoe trips around Puget Sound, Lake Harrison B.C., Ross Lake, Lake Chelan and the Columbia River, I've had some experience with wind and canoes. I must say upfront, I have never flown a kite from a canoe. But; I have flown square-rigged viking type sails, triangular sails and ponchos. A poncho stretched between your forward person's paddle and the spare gives you about 1-1/2 meters of 'play sail' and depending on the wind can move you along quite smartly. In my -opinion- a parafoil or flow-form of two to three square meters flown >From a single line would perform very favorably downwind. You will get considerably more control when quartering downwind if you lash a 2ft x 4ft plywood daggerboard to the downwind side of the vessel if you are taking a long traverse. DON'T fly higher than 30 to 50 feet! You WILL need to get it down FAST! On the water you don't need to get much higher anyway to get the maximum traction available from your kite. With a couple of canoes lashed together with poles (4 ft gap) I've used a tent as a playsail anchored by someone in each hull. -- johnsen@eskimo.com Brian Johnsen 'Dances with Tacos' = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1993 22:53:42 -1000 From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) Message-Id: Organization: /usr/lib/news/organisation Subject: Re: kite sails for canoeing In article johnsen@eskimo.com (Brian Johnsen) writes: >DON'T fly higher than 30 to 50 feet! You WILL need to get it down FAST! >On the water you don't need to get much higher anyway to get the maximum >traction available from your kite. And here lies one of the problems. A big kite on a short line will be unstable and if you wet a soft kite it just gets harder. On the other hand, a long-line launch of a parafoil on water can be kinda umm... interesting. Also, don't forget, that on a boat, if you get a lull or a luff, you can't run back :-) I suspect that with careful analysis, you will find that you want to line to be longer that x but shorter than y, but that in all cases x>y :-) Andrew -- Work: gaffer@rec.com Phone: +44 793 614 110 Fax: +44 793 614 297 Play: andrew@tug.com Phone: +44 256 464 912 Interested in kite traction? mail kites@tug.com = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1993 19:49:22 -1000 From: johnsen@eskimo.com (Brian Johnsen) Message-Id: Organization: Tacos 'R' Us Subject: Re: kite sails for canoeing In article , Andrew Beattie wrote: >In article johnsen@eskimo.com (Brian Johnsen) writes: >And here lies one of the problems. A big kite on a short line will be >unstable and if you wet a soft kite it just gets harder. On the other I'll defer to the traction experts about the stability aspects. We only used sails as an auxiliary power source when canoeing. Even If your kite went into the drink, once you fish it out and drain the water, you still have plenty of wind and time to dry it out and put it up again. And another thing. I wouldn't recommend trying to hold up your sail by hand, be it multiple line or single line. Towing a canoe loaded with 700 lbs. or more of people and gear is still 700 lbs. if you're going 20 minutes or 6 hours. >hand, a long-line launch of a parafoil on water can be kinda umm... >interesting. Also, don't forget, that on a boat, if you get a lull or a >luff, you can't run back :-) I suspect that with careful analysis, you In a canoe you can run back. If you're using a kite to pull you downwind you'll probably run over it rather than have to run back. And you generally have all the time you care to spend. That's the nice thing about messing about in boats. >will find that you want to line to be longer that x but shorter than y, >but that in all cases x>y :-) -- Brian Johnsen johnsen@eskimo.com = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1993 15:29:16 -1000 From: mark@murder.demon.co.uk (Mark de Roussier) Message-Id: <754302556snx@murder.demon.co.uk> Organization: damage Subject: Re: kite sails for canoeing In article johnsen@eskimo.com (Brian Johnsen) writes: > >[ stuff vis getting harder when wet... :)] > > And another thing. I wouldn't recommend trying to hold up your sail by > hand, be it multiple line or single line. Towing a canoe loaded with > 700 lbs. or more of people and gear is still 700 lbs. if you're going > 20 minutes or 6 hours. > Errr... What does the mass of the canoe and occupants have to to with things ? Lets see. At a constant velocity, the force you experience holding on to the kite will be the friction/drag force being experienced by the canoe. Mass will affect your acceleration/deceleration, but will only have a minor effect ( AFAIK ) on the drag at a given velocity. So for mass to be a significant factor you must figure on spending alot of your time accelerating or decelerating. Is this the case ? -- Mark de Roussier ************************************ Final thoughts, as breath is taken, Fall to rhythm, and the Edge of pure obsession, Resting in that wind blown cradle, Nothing moves, the world is still... ************************************ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = From: Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1993 05:27:30 -1000 From: Chuck.Paul Message-Id: <1993Dec1.152730.4228@mixcom.mixcom.com> Organization: Milwaukee Internet Xchange BBS, Milwaukee, WI (414) 241-5469 Subject: Re: kite sails for canoeing In johnsen@eskimo.com (Brian Johnsen) writes: >In article , Andrew Beattie wrote: >>In article johnsen@eskimo.com (Brian Johnsen) writes: >>And here lies one of the problems. A big kite on a short line will be >>unstable and if you wet a soft kite it just gets harder. On the other Andrew, Brian, I don't have the original article, so sorry if this covers old ground in the discussion... There are such things as sailing canoes. Generally the rig for the sails are home-brew. Likewise for leeboards. I've used a sailing canoe a few times. They're surprisingly functional. The first reqirement is a canoe with better than average stability. The second is a significant appriciation for sailing technique. The results are worth the effort if you're interested. --Chuck Paul, Chuck.Paul@mixcom.com H:(414)536-5683 W:(Strong Mutual Funds) 359-3713 -- Chuck.Paul@mixcom.com Home:(414)536-5683 Strong Funds:359-3713 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = From: Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1993 05:27:30 -1000 From: Chuck.Paul Message-Id: <1993Dec1.152730.4228@mixcom.mixcom.com> Organization: Milwaukee Internet Xchange BBS, Milwaukee, WI (414) 241-5469 Subject: Re: kite sails for canoeing In johnsen@eskimo.com (Brian Johnsen) writes: >In article , Andrew Beattie wrote: >>In article johnsen@eskimo.com (Brian Johnsen) writes: >>And here lies one of the problems. A big kite on a short line will be >>unstable and if you wet a soft kite it just gets harder. On the other Andrew, Brian, I don't have the original article, so sorry if this covers old ground in the discussion... There are such things as sailing canoes. Generally the rig for the sails are home-brew. Likewise for leeboards. I've used a sailing canoe a few times. They're surprisingly functional. The first reqirement is a canoe with better than average stability. The second is a significant appriciation for sailing technique. The results are worth the effort if you're interested. --Chuck Paul, Chuck.Paul@mixcom.com H:(414)536-5683 W:(Strong Mutual Funds) 359-3713 -- Chuck.Paul@mixcom.com Home:(414)536-5683 Strong Funds:359-3713 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =