RIPE NCC Contributors Committee
1996 Annual Meeting
____________________________________________________
RIPE NCC Contributors Committee
1996 Annual Meeting
Minutes
Daniel Karrenberg
Roderik Muit
Document: ripe-145
The meeting was called by Steve Druck, TERENA vice
president for services, and held on September
11th 1995 at the Dorint Hotel, Badhoevedorp, Nether-
lands.
These minutes were prepared by Roderik Muit and
Daniel Karrenberg of the RIPE NCC.
Participants
Bernward Averwald:de.roka
Lajos Balint:hu.hungarnet
Per Bilse:eu.eunet
Jaroslav Bobovsky:sk.sanet
Daniel David:de.ipf
Steve Druck:TERENA (Chairman)
Klaus Ellegaard:dk.azlan
John Evans:fr.netsat
Jan Gruntorad:cz.cesnet
Hans Petter Holen:no.sn
Daniel Karrenberg:RIPE NCC
Alexandre Krivine:SKYWORLD:akrivine@sky.fr
Mirjam Kuehne:RIPE NCC
Wolfgang Mair:de.profinet
Eric Merkoske-Bree:fr.netsat
Dave Morton:de.ecrc
Roderik Muit:RIPE NCC (minutes)
Kees Neggers:nl.surfnet
Mike Norris:ie.heanet
Daniel Nussbaum:ch.tic
Carol Orange:RIPE NCC
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Rick Payne:uk.netcom
Marco Pomponi:it.asianbyte
Marc Roger:be.belnet
Nick Shield:uk.janet
Daniel Sjoberg:se.telia
Henk Steenman:eu.att
Andrea Stefankovicova:sk.pubnet
Bernhard Stockman:se.telia
Karel Vietsch:TERENA
Wim Vink:eu.eunet
Bob Wardrop:fr.netsat
Tony Weatherill:uk.mercury
Ton Windgassen:eu.ibm
Wilfried Woeber:at.aconet
Apologies
The following people had sent their apologies prior
to the meeting:
Paul Ridley: RIPE NCC
Gregoriy Dmitriev:ru.fastnet
Giuliana Tamorri:it.garr
Konstantin Vinogradov:ru.fastnet
Richard Oxby:fr.netsat
Bill Unsworth:uk.u-net
Roger Doire:fr.cybercable
Pontus Ekman:se.pi
1. Welcome & Preliminaries
Steve Druck welcomed the participants and was
elected to chair the meeting.
Wolfgang Mair suggested to add an extra agenda point
about a new action of the German authoroties con-
cerning Internet regulation. Daniel Karrenberg
pointed out that the contributors were not the right
group to take actions on this: it would be interest-
ing to hear something about the developments but
actions or decisions should be taken by RIPE. It
was decided not to discuss this matter.
Steve Druck suggested that the recently published
registry procedures document (ripe-140) could be
discussed by the meeting. Unfortunately this docu-
ment was not ready in time for this discussion to be
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put on the agenda, hence formal endorsement by the
contributors should be done via e-mail. Wilfried
Woeber noted that the changes from RIPE-136 to
RIPE-140 were mainly editorial, and RIPE-136 had
already been adopted by the Local IRs. He concurred
that endorsement by the contributors was useful and
should occur via the mailing list. No-one expressed
the need for further discussion. Therefore the dis-
cussion was not added to the agenda.
During discussions later that day, issues were
brought up that were moved towards the end of the
meeting, and added as separate agenda points 6 and
7.
Agenda
The final agenda for the meeting:
1 Welcome, Selection of Chair for Meeting
Steve Druck, TERENA VP for Services
2 NCC Activity Report Q1-Q3/96
Daniel Karrenberg, Mirjam Kuehne, Carol Orange
For information and comments.
3 NCC Financial Report Q1-Q3/96
Daniel Karrenberg
For information and comments.
4 NCC Activities and Expenditure 1997
Daniel Karrenberg
Proposal sent out August 30th.
For discussion and decision.
5 RIPE NCC Revenue & Charging 1997
Carol Orange
Proposal sent out September 3rd
For discussion and decision.
6 Level of Reserves
Added during the meeting.
7 New Legal Structure for the RIPE NCC
Added during the meeting.
8 Closing
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2. NCC Activity Report, Q1-Q3/1996
Documents
"RIPE NCC Annual Report 1995"
ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-139.ps
ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-139.txt
"RIPE NCC Quarterly Report Q1-1996"
ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-135.ps
ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-135.txt
The RIPE NCC reported on activities since the last
meeting. The growth in the number of local reg-
istries has again been significantly higher than
estimated. The NCC has been able to keep up with
essential services but coordination and new activi-
ties have suffered.
As suggested by the contributors the NCC's structure
has been changed to include a business manager. In
addition there is now an engineering manager in
charge of all engineering activities. So the man-
agement team now consists of
Daniel Karrenberg:NCC
Mirjam Kuehne:Registration
Carol Orange:Engineering
Paul Ridley:Business
Please refer to the documents for details about spe-
cific activities.
Discussion
Bernard Stockman asked how many registries a host-
master can manage. Mirjam Kuehne answers that the
NCC measures this not in terms of registries but in
terms of specific activities the hostmasters per-
form, like assignments, allocations etc..
Wilfried Woeber asked if the RIPE NCC received feed-
back from the registries about the plan to assign
hostmasters specifically to registries. Mirjam
answered that the NCC has received quite positive
reactions about this plan.
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Bernard Stockman asked what the RIPE NCC considers
an acceptable delay in response time for requests
sent to hostmaster@ripe.net. Daniel Karrenberg
replied that this is not for the NCC to decide but
for the local registries. From feedback he got from
the registries, it came out that two to three days
was considered still acceptable and the response
time should not grow above that. Hans Petter Holen
noted that the crucial thing is not as much the
response time as it is knowing what the response
time will be. He would like to see a way in which
Local IRs can know this in advance. Mirjam Kuehne
replied that the RIPE NCC has thought about this
fact and will implement a scheme for this as part of
the improvements to be made to the request tracking
system.
3. NCC Financial Report Q1-Q3/96
Documents
"RIPE NCC Annual Report 1995"
ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-139.ps
ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-139.txt
Daniel Karrenberg gave an overview over the current
financial status of the RIPE NCC including a revised
budget for 1996.
Daniel concluded that the financial position of the
NCC is currently very healthy. Daniel added that
future financial reports will be made in the form of
more established financial reporting formats such as
profit/loss accounts and balance sheets.
Discussion
Wim Vink asked how it could happen that the RIPE NCC
is suddenly being exposed to 1995 company tax.
Daniel Karrenberg and Steve Druck stated that not
budgeting for this was obviously an oversight of the
TERENA Executive Committee, the TERENA Secretariat
and the RIPE NCC. The TEC, the Secretariat and the
NCC acknowledge this mistake.
Tony Weatherill noted that it would be a good thing
for people to look into the RIPE NCC financial plans
and make suggestions. He called on the Contributors
as a group to feel more responsible.
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Mike Norris added that indeed the budgets had been
presented to the contributors and noone noted the
omission. He also added that he considered the
right actions had been taken by adding a business
manager to the NCC team.
Note:
A discussion evolved about the budgeted level
of reserves for 1997 and possible ways for the
RIPE NCC to avoid taxes in the future, which
was added as a separate agenda point but still
carried on throughout the day. All of this dis-
cussion is summarised at point 6 in an attempt
to make the minutes more consistent.)
Hans Petter Holen stated that the Contributors Com-
mittee should endorse the revised budget for 1996 in
this meeting. Steve Druck noted that the budget had
been published on the mailinglist and nobody
objected, so in fact it had been approved. Hans Pet-
ter Holen insisted that the Contributors should
actively approve the budget, because that is part of
their role. This was also moved to the end of the
meeting.
Hans Petter wanted to know what the role of the con-
tributor's committee was. If they would not make
decisions along these lines, then what were they
here for? What exactly is the role of the co-co?
That discussion was moved to the end of the day.
4. NCC Activities and Expenditure 1997
Documents
"RIPE NCC Activities & Expenditure 1997" ripe-act
ftp:...drafts/ripe-act....
Daniel Karrenberg began by stressing that the main
challenge to the RIPE NCC is to manage its growth.
He compared the growth estimates made at the previ-
ous meeting with the actual figures which again were
higher than the projections. He then gave a short
overview over the document including the current
growth projections, as well as the activities and
resources needed.
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Discussion
Steve Druck stated that the RIPE NCC would be
approached as a candidate for operating a European
CERT coordination centre. He asked the audience
whether they thought the RIPE NCC was a suitable
place to operate this.
Wilfried Woeber supported this idea fully. Kees Neg-
gers noted that this would change the scope of the
RIPE NCC, since it is not a monopoly activity. Steve
Druck answered that it is also a coordinating activ-
ity. Also, it would be financed independently.
To Bernard Stockman's question whether the RIPE NCC
was interested, Daniel Karrenberg replied that he
did not know yet what the proposed activity was
about. He added that the NCC should probably be
involved because the customers for a CERT coordina-
tion centre are mainly the ISPs which the NCC
already serves and has built relationships with.
The experience the NCC has with large scale coordi-
nation efforts could also be useful to this activ-
ity.
Wim Vink asked who would approach the NCC as a can-
didate and Steve Druck said that TERENA would. In
the first instance, a European CERT coordination
centre would be a TERENA activity but it was
expected that it would eventually stand on its own.
Tony Weatherill supported the idea, but noted that
the best thing to do was first investigate the scope
of a CERT coordination centre and to be wary of the
possibility that the NCC might loose its current
focus. Steve Druck confirmed that the proposal was
at this moment for a pilot organisation of one to
three people.
There was consensus a CERT activity could be exe-
cuted at the NCC if the NCC can accommodate it and
it funded separately from other NCC activities. The
contributors requested to be kept informed about
developments.
A second question from Steve Druck concerned whether
the contributors thought that the RIPE NCC could
play a role as representing the European Internet
Industry.
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Mike Norris proposed that activity N.4, Industry
Representation, was more a coordination activity.
Daniel Karrenberg stated he had no idea which way
the discussion about this issue inside RIPE would go
and there was no concrete plan for this activity
yet.
The general opinion expressed by the meeting was
that the RIPE NCC could do this only on matters that
are inside the scope of RIPE NCC's current activi-
ties, such as address space registration and provi-
sion of Internet statistics. Care should be taken
not to become defocussed. The RIPE NCC should not
represent the European Internet industry as a lobby-
ing organisation because that industry usually has
no collective opinion on many matters. Taking
stands here could endanger the RIPE NCC's neutral
position.
The idea to set up an advisory committee inside
RIPE, which advises the RIPE NCC on matters of
industry representation, was dismissed.
Steve Druck finalised the agenda point by asking
everyone whether they approved the Activities &
Expenditure document. This was done and the RIPE NCC
was asked to amend the plan according to the discus-
sion and publish it.
5. RIPE NCC Revenue & Charging 1997
Documents:
"Alternative Models for RIPE NCC Revenue & Charging
1997"
ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-143.ps
ftp://ftp.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-143.txt
Carol Orange presented the document including the
proposed revenue and the three alternative charging
models.
Discussion
Steve Druck asked Daniel Karrenberg to summarise the
discussions on the contributors mailing list.
Daniel said that he had had no opportunity to
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perform exact counts. His estimate of responses
both to the contributors list and to him privately
was that about 80% of the people preferred model 1,
with model 3 as second choice, and about 20% pre-
ferred model 3, with model 1 as second choice.
There was very little support for model 2 and some
rejected it explicitly.
Other concerns expressed were the administrative
overhead that quarterly billing would bring. Daniel
noted that these concerns could easily be addressed
by appropriate invoicing procedures for any of the
models proposed. Some small registries complained
about the increased charges for their category.
After short discussion there was consensus not to
pursue model 2 any further and to see whether con-
sensus could be established to use either model 1 or
model 3. What was then discussed next came down to
various properties of model 3:
Wilfried Woeber asked why the charge for a new allo-
cation of a /16 in the first quarter of 1997 is so
much higher than for an allocation in the fourth
quarter. Carol noted that the algorithm is
explained in the document, but if the contributors
felt this should be changed, then the difference
could easily be flattened.
It was noted that model 3 encourages conservation of
address space, which is a good thing. It was also
noted that it is somewhat at odds with address space
aggregation. The model should be adjusted in a way
that aggregation is not hurt too much.
Mike Norris expressed concern that there will be a
charge linked specifically to an allocation of
address space, while RIPE just agreed that IP
addresses have no intrinsic value. Carol Orange
responded that the charge was designed in every pos-
sible way to be not for the addresses per se but for
the registration services associated with it. This
was evident from the fact that the charge decreases
over time as the expected level of services needed
does.
After further intensive discussion it became clear
that consensus to use either model 1 or model 3 as
proposed could not be achieved.
Many contributors found model 3 to be too complex in
that computing their own fee would require a calcu-
lator, spreadsheet or program to determine. Some
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also felt the administrative side is too complex and
that all parameters need to be agreed upon. A sim-
pler model 3 was argued for. The suggestion of a
flat fee per allocation was however turned down,
because the RIPE NCC has much less work on older
allocations.
An alternative suggestion was made to use model 1
with 3 fixed categories, but to determine a minimum
size category according to the address space allo-
cated to each registry. This would determine the
minimum charge for a given registry but still allow
the registry to choose a larger category if they
wished. This was supported by most of those pre-
sent.
Daniel Karrenberg stated that he does not want the
RIPE NCC to make subjective decisions on the size of
registries. He wanted to have an algorithm to
decide the category and requested some input on the
number of categories as well as the parameters to be
used to decide the minimum registry size. He also
suggested to use this algorithm as an advice and
leave the choice up to the registries, as not all
registries can be judged in the same way. The over-
all reaction from the meeting was that the choice
should not be left up to the registries and the min-
imum size category should be binding. The discus-
sion on the number of categories came up several
times more during the meeting and it was concluded
that the number should remain three.
Kees Neggers stated that the contributors should
explicitly decide that the important parameter in
the algorithm is load on the RIPE NCC, not address
space allocated. Per Bilse and Wilfried Woeber said
that the most expensive activities out of model 2
should go into the algorithm. Daniel said he would
surely consider this and noted that the most impor-
tant item was the training courses. The NCC would
continue to consider obtaining revenue directly from
the courses while at the same time encouraging their
use.
Per Bilse suggested to make training courses manda-
tory for new registries before they can start inter-
action with the RIPE NCC. After some discussion
Daniel Karrenberg stated that this was not practi-
cally feasible for 1997 as the NCC could not guaran-
tee to make sufficient training capacity available.
He added that he was not currently in favour of a
what could be called "Certified Registry Operator".
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Kees Neggers' suggestion that the algorithm be
decided upon in the next meeting met opposition
because it was felt that the relevant research had
already been done. Some also stated that given the
expected growth rate it is beneficial to make rea-
sonable changes earlier rather than later. Kees
also suggested to only apply this algorithm to new
registries and to leave currently existing reg-
istries in their current categories the next year.
This was turned down after Daniel said he expected a
lot of controversy especially from new registries
and it would generate a lot of discussion.
After further thorough discussion the RIPE NCC com-
mitted to have an algorithm for determining sizes
ready by October 1st and suggested would circulate
the proposal on the mailinglist by then. Wim Vink
suggested that the algorithm should just be imple-
mented right away.
The final decision was that the RIPE NCC would
design and implement the 1997 charging scheme with-
out further endorsement from the contributors. The
scheme would be based on the principles described in
ripe-143 and model 1 in particular. The NCC would
design an algorithm to determine a registry's size
and therefore minimum charging category. The algo-
rithm would be a simplified version of the model 3
algorithm with three size categories. The fees must
be set so that any cross subsidies are kept at an
absolute minimum. Via the mailing list, the con-
tributers will be notified of the charging scheme,
the registry sizes and fees by October 1st 1996.
6. Level of Reserves
The discussion on the amount of budgeted reserves
had come up several times. Some of those present
felt that the amount of reserves was too high, espe-
cially since a lot of taxes has to be paid over the
surpluses needed to build them. Karel Vietsch
explained that in its current legal setup there was
no way the RIPE NCC could get out of paying Dutch
company tax on its surpluses.
There was extensive discussion whether or not the
different categories of reserves were actually over-
lapping, and whether the reserves could be covered
by the registries paying in advance or whether pay-
ing in advance was only an issue of cash flow and
not of balance.
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The suggestion was made by several people that the
RIPE NCC should not have to have a high level of
reserves, as it could always fall back on the con-
tributors in case of troubles. Karel Vietsch and
Daniel Karrenberg were concerned that getting extra
money from all contributing Local IRs would cause a
lot of problems since a lot of Local IRs see them-
selves more as customers than as members, and the
current contract, while having words to support
this, is not explicit enough. Karel expressed the
concern that in case of trouble, the contributors
might drop the RIPE NCC, form another company and
leave TERENA with the debts. He noted that this is
a reason to think about making a legal separation
between TERENA and the RIPE NCC.
Very thorough and intensive discussions about the
level of reserves and the way to obtain them fol-
lowed. There were many suggestions including to
have reserves in the form of subordinate loans from
the contributors to the NCC. After the discussions
it was agreed that consensus about a long term level
of reserves could not be established at this meet-
ing. The problem should be attacked in a structural
way in conjunction with the development of a new
legal structure. Consensus about both issues should
be established in the coming months. Provided that
this was an interim solution it was agreed for 1997
to budget for a reserve level of one year of salary
cost to be earned over two years.
7. New Legal Structure for the RIPE NCC
There was consensus among those present that the
legal structure of the RIPE NCC should be changed in
order to separate it cleanly from TERENA and min-
imise tax liabilities. Karel Vietsch stated that
TERENA fully agreed with this and wished to take an
active role in the process. Daniel Karrenberg was
very happy about the general consensus on such an
important issue. He stressed that developing a new
structure should be done carefully to safeguard the
stability and independence of the NCC while giving
the contributors the necessary control. After some
discussion it was agreed that a logical and realis-
tic target date to have the new structure opera-
tional was January 1st 1998.
Steve Druck moved the discussion forward to the sub-
ject of finding a committee that would investigate
possibilities for a new organisational structure for
the RIPE NCC. He volunteered Karel Vietsch and
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himself as members. Carol Orange suggested Paul Rid-
ley and Daniel Karrenberg as advisory (non-voting)
members. Mike Norris suggested Rob Blokzijl. Con-
tributors were still looked for. Wim Vink volun-
teered on the condition that the committee would be
very small, with 3 people maximum. Daniel Karrenberg
noted that with such a small group of people, the
decision making process would have to be very clear
if general consensus among all contributors was ever
to be reached.
There was agreement that a small group should work
to establish the general possibilities and report
back to the contributors. The members of the group
suggested were Wim Vink, Karel Vietsch and Paul Rid-
ley.
8. Closing
Steve Druck concluded that the 1997 activities and
budget had been agreed with amendments concerning
the level of reserves, that the NCC was given a spe-
cific mandate to determine the 1997 charging scheme
and that a new legal structure for the NCC would be
developed.
He thanked all participants for a constructive meet-
ing and encouraged them to take an active part in
the mailing list discussions over the coming months.
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