Newsgroups: rec.arts.int-fiction
Path: gmd.de!ira.uka.de!yale.edu!newsserver.jvnc.net!howland.reston.ans.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!eff!ddsw1!chinet!jorn
From: jorn@chinet.chi.il.us (Jorn Barger)
Subject: TADS romance thoughts (reply to Whitten)
Message-ID: <C3tC5E.60o@chinet.chi.il.us>
Organization: Chinet - Public Access UNIX
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1993 05:48:50 GMT
Lines: 167

David Whitten:
> First of all, I think the simple number attractiveness rating is too
> restrictive.  This seems to be too much like 'how attractive a character is
> to some omniscient being'.  

Absolutely!  Just primin' the pumps...

> It seems to me that a better method would
> be to have a set of characteristics or qualities that each character thinks
> is attractive, (physical, mental, and spiritual) and then a modifier
> that is based on transient features including emotional commitment,
> whether they are on the rebound, how long they have been dateless, and some
> other criteria including the character's current emotional state.

Yeah-- so, to complicate the game, you might stand a chance in:

attractive approaches more-attractive-but-wounded-esteem-from-breakup
or
attractive approaches more-attractive-but-fortunately-extremely-horny ;^)

    The heat of the sun on a summer day
    Warms a young girl in an amorous way.
        Flaubert [Madame Bovary 230]

> The set of characterstics for the 'ideal' of each person would be compared
> against whoever else was in the room, party, or meeting place.

"I was at a party with Marco, who has a racing car and is a soccer star, 
and we met this really pretty girl... I ran into her a few days later and 
reminded her that we'd met at that party, but she couldn't even place me 
until I said I was the one with Marco..."   Personal informant

'most-attractive-male-in-room approaches more-attractive-female'
is the relevant exception to the usual rule, here.

> People who have some min-max computation of qualities would get better
> responses than someone who doesn't. I've been thinking of using a sum
> of reciprocals of quality values whith the transient features making a
> multiplier on the reciprocal, but it hasn't worked out quite like I want.
> I think a simple number compare would be nice, but I have also tried some
> other AI type analogy comparisons as well...

Are you using TADS, or any other real language yet?  I approve of your 
suggestions, but deciding which ones to try first, and exactly how, is 
**hard**.

> IMAO, the attractiveness value must be based on the attractiveness to the
> person who is approached, NOT some global value.

Oddly enough, one way to implement this is the *astrology* model!

> I've also been working on how to get non player characters to approach
> the player character in more subtle ways than just walking up to them.
> 
> The ways I've thought of so far are:
> 1) Being a guest at a common friend's house..

    We gotta get you a woman
    It's like nothin else to make you
    Feel sure you're alive!
        Todd Rundgren (Amer. b.1948)

(Is that more-or-less what you mean?)

This is pretty ambitious for TADS, I fear.

> 1a) Inviting the player to a meal/party/date.

    Mm Mm Mm Would you like to take a walk?
    Mm Mm Mm Do you think it's gonna rain?
    Mm Mm Mm How about a sasparilla?
    Gee the moon is yeller
    Sump'n good'll come from that!
        Mort Dixon (Amer. 1892-1956) and Billy Rose (1930)

Yeah, straight to the makeout-room is kinda Clarence-Thomas-like ;^)

Pretty simple to let her/him follow you to a halfway-room first, but not 
straight to makeout.

> 2) sending a note by way of someone else.

'Shy' strategies?  (The old Laugh-In skit where the witness is too 
embarrassed to repeat what the harrassment-defendant said to her, so she 
writes it down and the jury passes it around, but the last juror has been 
napping and assumes the note is from the juror who passed it to *her*... 
and winks and nods, delighted!)

> 3) Winking or 'body language'

    Mystical grammar of amorous glances...
        John Cleveland (England 1613-58)
        "Mark Antony" (1647)

        'Male and Female'
    We are carefully watching each other,
    We are prowling through casual speech,
    We are drifting towards reefs through the smother
    Of each one's awareness of each.

    We are jockeying now for position,
    We are dropping the duellist's glove,
    We are tempting the cruel perdition
    Of something called love.
        William Rose Benet (Amer. 1886-1950)

A logical equivalent might be to go to each person in the room, and do 
some test like "talk X", where subtle differences in response cue 
willingness.

But this is just another shy strategy, to minimize rejection-pain, which 
we haven't modelled yet.

Maybe if you get rejected in front of others, your attractiveness plummets?

> 4) Buying the player a drink. (trite, but if it works in real life...)

easy in TADS, yes, I think.

> 5) 'Dropping by for a cup of sugar' or 'help on fixing my car' etc.
>     The trick is to make it seem believable but not too obvious.

Another 'halfway' strategy.  Don't seem too eager.  WELL attested in the 
literature:

    The look of love alarms
    Because 'tis filled with fire;
    But the look of soft deceit
    Shall win the lover's hire.
        Wm. Blake

    He that will win his dame, must do
    As Love does, when he bends his bow;
    With one hand thrust the lady from,
    And with the other pull her home.
        Samuel Butler (English 1612-80)

    It's a funny thing about love
    The more you need love
    The less loveable you are...
        T-Bone Burnett "The Trapdoor"

    Disdain begets a suit, scorn draws us nigh,
    'Tis cause I would, and cannot, makes me try.
        Henry Bold (English 1627-83)
        "Chloris, Forbear a While" (1656)

The wise lover does not praise his beloved until he has won him.
        Plato "Lysis"

    Teach me a measure of casualness
    Though you stalk into my room like Venus naked.
        Robert Graves "A Measure of Casualness"

This is easy enough if you spell out all eagerness-signs explicitly, but 
maybe hard to generalize.

==========================================================================
Gratuitous parting shot ( -of-love):

    She opened her eyes, and green
      They shone, clear like flowers undone
    For the first time, now for the first time seen.
        D.H. Lawrence (English 1885-1930)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
jorn@chinet.chi.il.us  (Jorn Barger)
