Date: 22 Mar 1993 18:59:30GMT From: "Alun J. Carr" <ajcarr%ollamh.ucd.ie@Forsythe.Stanford.EDU> Subject: [*] Centris Ethernet Report Dear All, A week ago I sent out a request for information about the built-in ethernet connection in a Centris 650 (as in our College Microstore didn't want me to use it). I enclose the responses I received for filing as a report. The consensus is that the inbuilt connector is the thing to use, with the caveat that Apple's self-terminating transponders may cause problems. One respondent seems to have had very bad problems with Quadra 700s, cause unknown. Many thanks to all those who replied. Alun A. J. Carr, Mech. Eng. Dept., UCD, Belfield, Dublin 4, Ireland. ===== Cut here ============================================================ ========== ORIGINAL MESSAGE: ========== From: Self <AJCARR> To: info-mac@sumex-aim.stanford.edu Subject: Centris built-in Ethernet connection (Q) Reply-to: ajcarr@ollamh.ucd.ie Date: 14 Mar 1993 18:56:12 I recently took delivery of a shiny new Centris 650 8/500 (which I'm not typing this on for reasons which will become apparent), and it has an RJ45 connector on the back, which I understand is a built-in Ethernet connection \`a la Quadra. The College Microstore from whom I purchased the above beast tell me that I shouldn't buy the Apple RJ45->thin co-ax adapter for this, but that I should buy an Asant\'e NuBus card instead. They tell me that this is because (i) Apple don't know anything about Ethernet connections (which I find a mite hard to believe) and (ii) NCSA/BYU Telnet 2.5 doesn't have a driver for these inbuilt connections (though I would have thought that there'd be a few Quadras at the NCSA, of all places!). Does anybody have any good/bad experiences of using these inbuilt connections? Would a NuBus card be any better (a colleague and myself have had bad experiences with Asant\'e products in the past---like his SE with an Asant\'e card in it refuses to talk to his serial DeskWriter C when networking is turned on)? Do I have to buy a copy of MacTCP 1.1.1 to use the inbuilt connection with NCSA/BYU Telnet? Should I have kept the Microstore happy and bought a 486 (urgh, yech, retch...)? Please respond direct, and if I get a suitable number of responses I'll produce a summary. Thanks, everybody. Alun ========== REPLIES: ========== Date: Tue, 16 Mar 93 17:23:54 EST From: fredb@Calvin.EDU (Fred H. Bremmer) Subject: Mac built-in ethernet To: ajcarr@ollamh.ucd.ie Hello, Here at Calvin College we received three Quadra 700's, and bought coax tranceivers for them. One worked perfectly, one had intermittant ethernet problems that seemed to become permanent, and the other would only allow you to use the ethernet if you had booted from a floppy with System 7.0.1 and the ethernet drivers on it. It refused to access the ethernet when it booted from the hard drive which was configured exactly the same as the Quadra that worked fine. We're buying Asante cards for the two defective Quadras, and I'm typing this through NCSA Telnet on one of them which is using an Asante card borrowed from a IIcx. We're buying some Centris computers, and if they don't work with the transceivers from the defective Quadras, we'll either send the Centrises back to Apple for repair, or we'll buy more Asante cards. If possible, please send a copy of your results to my email address. I don't always have time to read the whole Info-Mac digest. Thanks, Fred -- Fred Bremmer | Internet: fredb@calvin.edu Calvin College |---------------------------- Grand Rapids, | Phone: (616) 957-6144 MI USA 49546 | Fax: (616) 957-8551 ========== Date: Tue, 16 Mar 93 09:26:50 -0100 From: ajones@rughsd.ksw.rug.nl (andrew jones) Subject: Q700 built in ethernet To: ajcarr@ollamh.ucd.ie Dear Alun, I just read your note about built in ethernet for macs. I am at this moment sitting infront of my Q700 with telenet 2.5, connected by thin ethernet to my workstation which gives me access to the wide world. I have ABSOLUTELY NO problems with this, the apple self- terminating cables are a real joy to use, and so it is not me who crashes the net anymore, infact the quadra is the most reliable machine on our local ethernet of various DIGITAL, SUN, and PC machines. IMHO, i would go for the apple solution, this is ofcourse only based on my experience with the Quadra, (but i also had very few problems with an apple ethernet nubus card for my old CX, and those were problems that came from not reading the book!) all the best andrew (ajones@solar.stanford.edu) ========== Date: Tue, 16 Mar 93 16:40:09 -0100 From: ajones@rughsd.ksw.rug.nl (andrew jones) Subject: Re: Q700 built in ethernet To: ajcarr@ollamh.ucd.ie Hi Alun, I am afraid that you do need MacTCP probably v1.1.1, though i can get by with 1.1. I got my version with Mathematica, and so did not actually pay for it, but the licencing seems to be very strange (as with all apple goodies!) I know the Eudora e-mail program used to be distributed with MacTCP, but maybe not now, it used to be available from ftp.cso.uiuc.edu. All the best, and let me know how you get on, or if you have problems andrew ========== Date: 16 Mar 1993 13:30:47 -0400 (EDT) From: "Michael S. McKinley" <MCKINLEY%OPUS@cutter.iarc.mco.edu> Subject: built-in Ethernet To: ajcarr@ollamh.ucd.ie apple's "built-in" Ethernet for which you have to buy the transponder is a wonderful thing...above all, it free's up your Nu-Bus slots for better things (so why would you buy an ethernet card, unless you take the word of a salesman). ========== Date: 16 Mar 1993 10:29:53 -0500 From: webster@ac.dal.ca (Chris Webster) Subject: Centris built-in Ethernet connection To: ajcarr@ollamh.ucd.ie >The College Microstore from whom I purchased the above beast >tell me that I shouldn't buy the Apple RJ45->thin co-ax adapter for this, >but that I should buy an Asant\'e NuBus card instead. Yea and you should buy 100 megs of memory, three 21" monitors, and five hard disks too. Your Microstore sounds pretty good at selling. >They tell me that this >is because (i) Apple don't know anything about Ethernet connections (which I >find a mite hard to believe) and (ii) NCSA/BYU Telnet 2.5 doesn't have a >driver for these inbuilt connections (though I would have thought that >there'd be a few Quadras at the NCSA, of all places!). They are screwey; and wrong on both counts. >Would a NuBus card be any better (a colleague and myself have >had bad experiences with Asant\'e products in the past---like his SE with an >Asant\'e card in it refuses to talk to his serial DeskWriter C when >networking is turned on)? I can't think of a single reason you'd want to put in an ethernet nubus card. Unless you want to be on two different networks(!!). Asante has pretty good stuff. For technical support you can mail to asante.tech@applelink.apple.com; I'm sure they'd help your friend. >Do I have to buy a copy of MacTCP 1.1.1 to use the >inbuilt connection with NCSA/BYU Telnet? No. But your campus should buy a site license of MacTCP so you'd get it "free". NCSA Telnet has built in drivers if you don't want to use any other TCP programs. >Please respond direct, and if I get a suitable number of responses I'll >produce a summary. I expect you'll get more than a few! Oh advice? You want to buy an Asante Friendly Net Connector (I'm not sure of the product name but saying this to someone *knowledgeable* will get you the correct thing). This connects the ether port on your machine to 10Base-T, ThinNet, or ThickNet, whatever you have there. Your campus network people *should* be able to help more than I. hope this helps -chris <webster@ac.dal.ca> ========== Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1993 10:05:57 -0600 From: williw1@mail.auburn.edu (Wade Williams) Subject: Re: Ethernet To: Info-Mac@sumex-aim.stanford.edu, ajcarr@ollamh.ucd.ie The College Microstore from whom I purchased the above beast >tell me that I shouldn't buy the Apple RJ45->thin co-ax adapter for this, >but that I should buy an Asant\'e NuBus card instead. They tell me that this >is because (i) Apple don't know anything about Ethernet connections (which I >find a mite hard to believe) Tell them THEY don't know anything about Ethernet connections. Apple knows plenty. Buy the Apple transceiver for the appropriate media (ThinNet, 10BaseT, etc). Asante makes FriendlyNet transceivers that used to be cheaper, but since Apple reduced prices on theirs, the difference is less than $10. You do NOT need an Ethernet NuBus card. (ii) NCSA/BYU Telnet 2.5 doesn't have a >driver for these inbuilt connections (though I would have thought that >there'd be a few Quadras at the NCSA, of all places!). It doesn't need one. It uses the standard Ethernet drivers included with your Macintosh, or MacTCP if that is installed. Would a NuBus card be any better (a colleague and myself have >had bad experiences with Asant\'e products in the past---like his SE with an >Asant\'e card in it refuses to talk to his serial DeskWriter C when >networking is turned on)? That's not Asante's fault. You cannot have both LocalTalk and Ethernet active at the same time. Your friend needs to buy something like Sonic System's LaserBridge to enable him to be able to use both simultaneously. Do I have to buy a copy of MacTCP 1.1.1 to use the >inbuilt connection with NCSA/BYU Telnet? You don't have to buy MacTCP to use NCSA Telnet. If you do not have MacTCP, 2.5 will use it's own TCP/IP instead. However, the benefits of MacTCP are many. It is now available for educational purchase for $39. >Should I have kept the Microstore >>happy and bought a 486 (urgh, yech, retch...)? Trust me, you did the right thing. When you were trying to get your network drivers loaded high but couldn't because you couldn't find a suitable address to locate the EMM386 page frame, you'd wish you'd bought a Mac. And the Microstore would be telling you the 486 was better because you "had more control." Wade Williams Academic Computing Services, Auburn University williw1@mail.auburn.edu ========== Date: Tue, 16 Mar 93 08:21:42 -0500 From: daveh@msd.measurex.com Subject: Ethernet interfaces To: "ajcarr@ccvax.ucd.ie"@COMET.msd.measurex.com The problem with Apple's adapter is that it is 'self-terminated' and that has lead to lots of problems. Apple just cut their list price of their adapters from $149 to $99 but most stores don't seem to be passing that price cut on. I just got some literature from Sonic Systems out near San Francisco and they have a new line of Ethernet adapters that use the more standard BNC terminating method plus they add LEDs to their adapters so that you can do diagnostics much easier. Their 5-year warranty isn't too bad either. I' don't have their phone number handy but information should have it. Hope this helps....... Dave Hirsh, Cincinnati,OH ========== Date: Mon, 15 Mar 93 21:50:36 EST From: Mel Martinez <mem@JHUFOS.pha.jhu.edu> Subject: Centris built-in Ethernet connection (R) To: info-mac@sumex-aim.stanford.edu Cc: AJCARR@ollamh.ucd.ie Reply-to: Mel Martinez <mem@JHUFOS.pha.jhu.edu> In info-mac digest v11 #058 Alun J. Carr <AJCARR%ollamh.ucd.ie@Forsythe.Stanford.Edu> writes: > I recently took delivery of a shiny new Centris 650 8/500 (which I'm not > typing this on for reasons which will become apparent), and it has an RJ45 > connector on the back, which I understand is a built-in Ethernet connection > \`a la Quadra. The College Microstore from whom I purchased the above beast > tell me that I shouldn't buy the Apple RJ45->thin co-ax adapter for this, > but that I should buy an Asant\'e NuBus card instead. They tell me that this > is because (i) Apple don't know anything about Ethernet connections (which I > find a mite hard to believe) and (ii) NCSA/BYU Telnet 2.5 doesn't have a > driver for these inbuilt connections (though I would have thought that > there'd be a few Quadras at the NCSA, of all places!). > > Does anybody have any good/bad experiences of using these inbuilt > connections? Would a NuBus card be any better (a colleague and myself have > had bad experiences with Asant\'e products in the past---like his SE with an > Asant\'e card in it refuses to talk to his serial DeskWriter C when > networking is turned on)? Do I have to buy a copy of MacTCP 1.1.1 to use the > inbuilt connection with NCSA/BYU Telnet? Should I have kept the Microstore > happy and bought a 486 (urgh, yech, retch...)? (i) clearly your College Microstore either doesn't know much about ethernet OR they are simply lying through their teeth to sell you hardware you already have... (ii) If the idiots new anything at all about Mac ethernet (or just plain the way macs work at all) they might know that mac programs in general don't supply their own drivers. The drivers are generally system level and are accessed through specific interfaces provided by the OS. In the case of ethernet, most programs go through the Comm ToolBox (CTB). The CTB provides a standard way for all programs to make use of both driver tools (such as the ethernet drivers provided by the OS (in the case of built-in ethernet) or by third parties (in the case of third party ethernet cards) as well as different protocol, server and client tools. This is very UNlike the dos world where every program has to provide it's own driver support for each piece of hardware it might encounter. Now, to be fair, it might be the in case (i) that they really mean that you should buy your RJ45=AAUI=FriendlyNet to thinnet transciever from Asante' instead of Apple since Asante's tranciever is usually cheaper (via Mail order, it is about $60 or so.). In case (ii) I believe there is a version of Telnet that does not use MacTCP but instead provides it's own TCP/IP protocol support. They may be all confused over that issue. In general, for max compatibility, you want to have all your TCP/IP tools going through MacTCP. To get the latest version of MacTCP (v1.1.1, which you will need, since you must run Sys7.1) you must either purchase it directly from APDA as part of the MacTCP Developer's kit ($99), or get it bundled with some commercial software or get it through your school if they have paid for a site liscence (and you are eligible to take advantage of this liscence). If you are not eligible to get it under a cheap liscence, the cheapest way I know of to get MacTCP is to order VersaTilities from Synergy Software (a truly great software company, btw) which is about $59 or so from MacWarehouse & other places. Aside from MacTCP, it also includes Telnet, FTP client/server and other nifty network tools that any CTB - aware program should be able to use. To go a little further and get a nice terminal emulator on top of this stuff, go ahead and get VersaTerm. It is lots nicer (IMHO) than NCSA Telnet and comes with all the goodies of VersaTilities. It is usually about $79. > Does anybody have any good/bad experiences of using these inbuilt > connections? Would a NuBus card be any better (a colleague and myself have > had bad experiences with Asant\'e products in the past---like his SE with an > Asant\'e card in it refuses to talk to his serial DeskWriter C when > networking is turned on)? Do I have to buy a copy of MacTCP 1.1.1 to use the > inbuilt connection with NCSA/BYU Telnet? Should I have kept the Microstore > happy and bought a 486 (urgh, yech, retch...)? I use the built-in ethernet of my Quadra all the time. So do zillions of others. A NuBus card MIGHT do better if it a) has a bigger buffer than the built-in enet (and I'm am sorry but I don't know how big that is) and b) takes full advantage of the NuBus advanced transfer modes. Otherwise, the fact that the built-in enet is directly hooked up the i/o controller in the Centris 650 makes me doubt any NuBus card is going to outperform it. The problem your friend is having is probably not a problem with the Asante' card. This complaint usually is a result of the fact that (without the addition of AppleTalk Inter-Network Router software [or whatever it is currently called]) the Mac system cannot have access to both localtalk and ethertalk at the same time. If you just use the ethernet connection for tcp/ip and not ethertalk, you should be able to switch the appletalk network in the Network Control Panel to local talk and access both the localtalk printer as well as ethernet tcp/ip services at the same time. If your tcp/ip services are through a gateway via ethertalk, though, he probably will not be able to do so. If you wish to use telnet or any tcp/ip services, you will indeed recquire MacTCP v1.1.1. See above for how to get. No you should not have kept the Microstore happy. Make your purchases to keep your self happy. :) This just might be aided by not shopping at the aforementioned Microstore. You might also want to point out to others the erroneous/incomplete purchasing info they have provided. Good luck! Mel Martinez The Johns Hopkins University Dept. of Physics mem@jhufos.pha.jhu.edu ========== Date: Tue, 16 Mar 93 10:17:37 EST From: Mel Martinez <mem@JHUFOS.pha.jhu.edu> Subject: Re: Centris built-in Ethernet connection (R) To: ajcarr@ollamh.ucd.ie Reply-to: Mel Martinez <mem@JHUFOS.pha.jhu.edu> In message <MAIL-101.930316134106.256@ollamh.ucd.ie> writes: > Mel, > > Thanks very much for your response. I'll lean on the Microstore for the > RJ45->ThinNet coax adapter. I hadn't thought of buying VersaTerm. Does it > provide Tektronix emulation like NCSA/BYU Telnet? > Yes, Regular VersaTerm provides Tektronix 4010/4014 emulation as well as Dec VT52/100/220 and Data General 200. VersaTerm Pro (noticeably more expensive) adds Tektronix 4105 (color) emulation. Most people really don't need the latter so I recommend to most to get plain-old VersaTerm. It is a real bargain. My only real complaint about VersaTerm (& VT Pro as well) is that the macro language is rather crude compared to MicroPhone, White Knight and a few others. THEY, however don't match versaterm at all for Tek emulation. It is really nice to be able to plot to the tek screen (a separate window) while logged in to the host, copy or save it as a PICT at 4 x resolution, then paste it into a document that was otherwise prepared on a Mac word processor. The tek screen can be 'paged' so that it saves previous plots in a session (limited by the amount of memory allocated to the program) which makes comparisons as simple as paging up and down in the tek emulation window. Also nice is that when saved as PICT objects, the plots are stored as vector drawings so by making the pen size small in a drawing program like Canvas, the full resolution of a laserwriter can be realized. Note, however, that fonts are vector-based tektronics drawings and don't usually look anywhere near as good as Mac TrueType or Postscript fonts. So this is where it is good to have the graphic as an object instead of a bitmap, since you can select and delete the offending text away and type in new text in any good drawing program (Canvas is the best, though. *wink*). > The problem with my colleague's Asant\'e card is not due to it being a > LocalTalk printer, as it uses the serial cable and the HP DeskWriter C v.2.0 > serial driver (the LocalTalk driver requires that LocalTalk cabling must be > used). It does seem to be a problem with the Asant\'e card and/or driver > software. We've solved it now by buying a Focus Enhancements SCSI/Ethernet > adapter box and tossing the Asant\'e card. The Focus box works like a dream. > Sorry, misunderstood. Many people do have the problem I described due to the fact that most people with local printers use localtalk cabling. How good is the performance of the Focus box (i.e. typical kilobytes/sec on a mid-large size file copy)? Their prices are very attractive. A lot of people on the 'Net put down SCSI-based ethernet solutions saying that it is too slow. I suspect, though, that they are usually seeing it implemented on Mac Pluses and SEs, both of which have VERY slow SCSI ports. On a fast SCSI such as on a IIci or later, I would expect pretty good performance. No personal experience with it, though. Cheers... Mel Martinez The Johns Hopkins University Dept. of Physics mem@jhufos.pha.jhu.edu ========== Date: Mon, 15 Mar 93 21:34:34 PST From: david%bluemoon@hub.ucsb.edu (David Bosso) Subject: re: info-mac (ethernet) To: ajcarr@ollamh.ucd.ie The built in ethernet works fine with everything including telnet. Telnet actually uses MacTCP which is an Apple driver, and you can bet your boots it works with built in ethernet. The connector on the back is not an RJ45 though (RJ45 is like a big modular phone jack) It is a "friendlynet" connector. You can get an adpter to thinnet from Apple or others for about $80 (I have used Apple and Asante adapters with no probs). -David