Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 03:33:22 -1000 From: John Stemper Message-Id: <3vim32$j8h@magellan.cloudnet.com> Organization: Cyberstar Subject: Bridle for a flowform. I recently purchased a 4 cell flowform (I think that that is what they are called. An airfoil shape with open leading edge and closed trailing edge.) It's about two feet across. I am having the darndest time getting it to fly. When there is enough wind to get it to fly it will only fly at about a 20 degree angle from the ground. It also becomes very unstable with a lot of looping and spinning. Should this kite fly better than that? Does anybody have any hints for adjusting the bridle? Any hints would be appreciated. Thanks John Stemper Cyberstr@cloudnet.com = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 04:48:00 -1000 From: mjpellet@mailgw.sanders.lockheed.com (Mark Pelletier) Message-Id: <3viqf0$jfv@news.sanders.lockheed.com> Organization: Lockheed Sanders Subject: Re: Bridle for a flowform. In article <3vim32$j8h@magellan.cloudnet.com>, cyberstr@cloudnet.com says... > >I recently purchased a 4 cell flowform (I think that that is >what they are called. An airfoil shape with open leading edge >and closed trailing edge.) It's about two feet across. I am >having the darndest time getting it to fly. When there is >enough wind to get it to fly it will only fly at about a 20 >degree angle from the ground. It also becomes very unstable >with a lot of looping and spinning. >Should this kite fly better than that? Does anybody have any >hints for adjusting the bridle? Any hints would be appreciated. > Sounds like a "parafoil in a bag" or a "parafoil 5". The low flight angle can probably be improved by moving the bridle tie-point up (towards the open end) by shortening the "top" lines. First check to be sure the bridle lines are not twisted or tangled. You should add a "tail" or drogue, if you have not already done so (tail too heavy for wind conditions wind keep the kite at a low angle too) Adjustments can be a tricky with smaller parafoils (sensitive), especially when the keels are not oriented in symmetrical rows. Adjust the lines in pairs to maintain left/right symmetry. Also, maintain a flat surface on the face by changing the length of lower bridle lines as appropriate. You can shorten your lines by simply tying a small overhand knot in the bridle lines; increase/decrease the size of the resulting loop to consume more or less line (1/4 inch increments). You should be able to find a bridle setting which will suit your typical wind conditions and yield an agreeable flight angle: 45deg is fair, 60deg is good, 90deg impossible? :). Measure your final settings, untie your overhand knots and re-tie the bridle lines (correct new length) at the kite end to clean up. Hope this helps. See ya' Mark = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 04:55:52 -1000 From: dlw@odi.com (Dan Weinreb) Message-Id: Organization: Object Design Inc., Burlington, MA Subject: Re: Bridle for a flowform. In article <3viqf0$jfv@news.sanders.lockheed.com> mjpellet@mailgw.sanders.lockheed.com (Mark Pelletier) writes: Sounds like a "parafoil in a bag" or a "parafoil 5". The low flight angle can probably be improved by moving the bridle tie-point up (towards the open end) by shortening the "top" lines. First check to be sure the bridle lines are not twisted or tangled. I'd like to add that it's very easy for the bridle lines to get twisted or tangled, and it can be a pain in the neck to fix them sometimes. One thing that can happen is that when the sail is deflated and folded (or smooshed, or whatever) for storage, sometimes the whole sail will end up passing through one of the loops formed by the bridle lines, and so you may have to do the inverse operation to untangle the lines. When they're untangled, the Parafoil 5 is usually easy to fly, in my experience. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 11:17:24 -1000 From: jburka@Glue.umd.edu (Jeffrey C. Burka) Message-Id: <3vjh94$pd@geog25.umd.edu> Organization: Project Glue, University of Maryland, College Park Subject: Re: Bridle for a flowform. In article <3vim32$j8h@magellan.cloudnet.com>, John Stemper wrote: >I recently purchased a 4 cell flowform (I think that that is >what they are called. An airfoil shape with open leading edge >and closed trailing edge.) Actually, the airfoil shape as you describe is what's called, generically, a parafoil. A sub-genre is the flowform, and since you mention that your kite has only 4 cells, it is almost certainly a small flowform. Other indicators include cross-cell venting (holes cut into the internal walls between the cells), a cutout area in the center at the back of the kite (this makes the kite look like it has small legs), a venting hole at the center of this cut out, and finally just one single bridle line for each of the 3 keels. (note: the ugly Rowlands' interpretation of the original Sutton FlowForm has multiple bridle lines per keel. This is a hack. ;-) This last one is important, as the couple of followups I've seen have interpreted your post as referring to a Jalbert-style parafoil, one which would have multiple lines per keel, and have recommended shortening the top lines of the bridle to improve the angle of attack. Clearly, on a true flowform, this is impossible. >having the darndest time getting it to fly. When there is >enough wind to get it to fly it will only fly at about a 20 >degree angle from the ground. It also becomes very unstable >with a lot of looping and spinning. The FlowForm should achieve a much better angle, and should fly with high stability as well. In high winds, a drogue is sometimes necessary to improve stability. Unless one leg of the bridle is *significantly* off, the kite should not loop at all; a slightly off bridle line would merely cause the kite to fly to one side or the other. You may have gotten a bad kite; you might consider returning it to the store where you bought it. Good luck, Jeff -- |Jeffrey C. Burka | Pithy, insightful quote to be inserted when one | |jburka@glue.umd.edu | occurs to me. *If* one occurs to me. | |http://www.wam.umd.edu/~jeffy/html/home.html | = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 07:37:27 -1000 From: coreykite@aol.com (Coreykite) Message-Id: <3vloon$k46@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Bridle for a flowform. Just to set the record straight... This does not sound like a Para-5. Para-5 is from Premier Kites and their product is of very good quality. Sounds like another version of approx. the same size. Many manufacturers build similar products, but they are not the same (quality, aerodynamics, etc). Personal experience with the cheap one from some outdoor supplier has been almost always a dissapointment. Nothing I do seems to help those sorry kites. Quality products from dedicated builders. Cost is not as important as value. aoxomoxoa coreykite@aol.com = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 07:32:15 -1000 From: coreykite@aol.com (Coreykite) Message-Id: <3vloev$k1h@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Bridle for a flowform. Sounds like a cheap parafoil, not a flow-form (which has open cells and vented trailing edge. Many are built only for sale, no interest in aerodynamics. Try longer bridles, and crown the cells just a bit (longer middle line) Very narrow wind range. Sorry to say this, but quality does not come cheap. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 10:11:18 -1000 From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) Message-Id: Organization: /usr/lib/news/organisation Subject: Re: Bridle for a flowform. jburka@Glue.umd.edu (Jeffrey C. Burka) writes: >(note: the ugly Rowlands' interpretation of the original >Sutton FlowForm has multiple bridle lines per keel. This is a hack. ;-) Jeffrey is, of course jokingly referring the beautiful British interpriatation of the idea, bringing the American prototype to the to it's fitting conclusion. :-) I've been playing with Flow-form derivatives. The first one was thrown >From second-rate carrington. The only keels were the outer ones (the bridle lines in the middle went straight to the skin, Peel-style). It flies very nicely in very little wind (including indoors). Last week, I tried taking it further (with particular interest in low wind) I carefuly built the kite from 1/2oz Icarex, with a nicely panneled graphic. I changed the venting and removed the outer keels too, to give the effect that I was looking for. It looks excellent. It flies like a complete dog. Won't raise above 30 degrees and is *very* unstable. *sigh* Back to the sewing machine... On the other hand, I made a graided tail from the tips on Carl's page and I'm very pleased with it. Thanks Carl. Andrew -- New to rec.kites? START HERE! | To: www@kfs.org send an email message like this->| Subject: service Skydiving is safe. Bungee is safe| http://www.kfs.org/kites/welcome/index.html Russian roulette is a calculated risk. Kite jumping is for morons = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 05:15:06 -1000 From: jburka@Glue.umd.edu (Jeffrey C. Burka) Message-Id: <3vo4pq$5s2@geog25.umd.edu> Organization: Project Glue, University of Maryland, College Park Subject: Re: Bridle for a flowform. In article , Andrew Beattie wrote: >jburka@Glue.umd.edu (Jeffrey C. Burka) writes: >>(note: the ugly Rowlands' interpretation of the original >>Sutton FlowForm has multiple bridle lines per keel. This is a hack. ;-) > >Jeffrey is, of course jokingly referring the beautiful British >interpriatation of the idea, bringing the American prototype to the >to it's fitting conclusion. :-) Nice try, Andrew. Steve Sutton is Canadian. Jeff -- |Jeffrey C. Burka | Pithy, insightful quote to be inserted when one | |jburka@glue.umd.edu | occurs to me. *If* one occurs to me. | |http://www.wam.umd.edu/~jeffy/html/home.html | = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 23:21:44 -1000 From: bernhard.malle@dbag.ulm.DaimlerBenz.COM (Bernhard Malle) Message-Id: <9508070921.AA03660@dagobert.dbag.ulm.DaimlerBenz.COM> Organization: Harvard University Office of Information Technology Subject: Re: Bridle for a flowform. > Last week, I tried taking it further (with particular interest in low wind) > I carefuly built the kite from 1/2oz Icarex, with a nicely panneled graphic. > I changed the venting and removed the outer keels too, to give the effect that > I was looking for. It looks excellent. It flies like a complete dog. Won't > raise above 30 degrees and is *very* unstable. *sigh* Back to the sewing > machine... Isn't this just like all YOUR kites behave, Andrew? (Couldn't resist...:-))) Bernhard = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =