Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 11:30:15 -1000 From: jmnelson@tigger.stcloud.msus.edu (J M Nelson) Message-Id: <9410262130.AA09123@inet-gw-2.pa.dec.com> Subject: Re: Knots and line strength John, jtavo@aol.com (JTavo), recently posted notes on a "simi-formal" inquiry into the wisdom of line sleeving. I, too, have noted that breaks rarely occur at knots, where I have been taught to expect them. However, the literature is replete with recommendations for sleeving. Pardon! I was under the naieve impression that this consensus was based on objective inquiry, either by qualified kite authorities or string manufacturers. Are the related admonitions simply myth!? Am I a member of another community of pseudoscientists, purporting unsupported, empirical-sounding statements that in actuality are simply another form of religious beliefs rather than consequences of rational inquiry. Tell me it isn't so! Having worked hard to divest myself of mythical shackles of the past, I wish not to stumble untentionally into another cult. Someone, please, assuage my fears; respond to John with copius citations of definitive research. Doing less will only confirm our subservence to yet another scurrilous myth that robs us of resources, time, and pleasure (except, perhaps, for those who, like religious fundamentalists, gain solice from participating in and imposing on others irrational and indefensible practices). Simply put, is sleeving scientific or sacaramental? J Michael Nelson Learning Resources Services St Cloud State University St Cloud MN 56301-4498 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 27 Oct 1994 05:57:04 -1000 From: ahclem0013@aol.com (AhClem0013) Message-Id: <38oikg$33h@newsbf01.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Knots and line strength In article <9410262130.AA09123@inet-gw-2.pa.dec.com>, jmnelson@tigger.stcloud.msus.edu (J M Nelson) writes: John, jtavo@aol.com (JTavo), recently posted notes on a "simi-formal" inquiry into the wisdom of line sleeving. I, too, have noted that breaks rarely occur at knots, where I have been taught to expect them. However, the literature is replete with recommendations for sleeving. Pardon! I was under the naieve impression that this consensus was based on objective inquiry, either by qualified kite authorities or string manufacturers. Are the related admonitions simply myth!? Am I a member of another community of pseudoscientists, purporting unsupported, empirical-sounding statements that in actuality are simply another form of religious beliefs rather than consequences of rational inquiry. Tell me it isn't so! Having worked hard to divest myself of mythical shackles of the past, I wish not to stumble untentionally into another cult. Someone, please, assuage my fears; respond to John with copius citations of definitive research. Doing less will only confirm our subservence to yet another scurrilous myth that robs us of resources, time, and pleasure (except, perhaps, for those who, like religious fundamentalists, gain solice from participating in and imposing on others irrational and indefensible practices). Simply put, is sleeving scientific or sacaramental? ***************unh, knots are, like, uh. . . . cool. aoxomoxoa = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 30 Oct 1994 04:48:36 -1000 From: mauricio@tezcat.com (Mauricio Araujo) Message-Id: <390bo4$7qb@xochi.tezcat.com> Organization: Tezcat.COM, Chicago Subject: Re: Knots and line strength YES, break the bonds that keep you a slave. I will now reveal the true secret. Line is not requiered. If you just let go of your kite it will float up about small distance (depending on design of your kite-100ft to 2000ft). At the end of the day, the kite will float back down to will. It's true. J M Nelson (jmnelson@tigger.stcloud.msus.edu) wrote: : John, jtavo@aol.com (JTavo), recently posted notes on a "simi-formal" : inquiry into the wisdom of line sleeving. I, too, have noted that breaks : rarely occur at knots, where I have been taught to expect them. However, : the literature is replete with recommendations for sleeving. : Pardon! I was under the naieve impression that this consensus was based on : objective inquiry, either by qualified kite authorities or string : manufacturers. Are the related admonitions simply myth!? Am I a member of : another community of pseudoscientists, purporting unsupported, : empirical-sounding statements that in actuality are simply another form of : religious beliefs rather than consequences of rational inquiry. : Tell me it isn't so! Having worked hard to divest myself of mythical : shackles of the past, I wish not to stumble untentionally into another : cult. : Someone, please, assuage my fears; respond to John with copius citations of : definitive research. : Doing less will only confirm our subservence to yet another scurrilous myth : that robs us of resources, time, and pleasure (except, perhaps, for those : who, like religious fundamentalists, gain solice from participating in and : imposing on others irrational and indefensible practices). : Simply put, is sleeving scientific or sacaramental? : J Michael Nelson : Learning Resources Services : St Cloud State University : St Cloud MN 56301-4498 : -- ============================================================================= Opinions not necessarily those of the author ;) _____________________________________________________________________________ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 30 Oct 1994 11:43:37 -1000 From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) Message-Id: Organization: /usr/lib/news/organisation Subject: Re: Knots and line strength jmnelson@tigger.stcloud.msus.edu (J M Nelson) writes: >Simply put, is sleeving scientific or sacaramental? Sacramental. Thou shalt always sleeve thy Spectra according to the ancient ritual. The Kite Oracle warns that if this ritual is forsaken He will avenge His anger at your insolence by breaking your lines in the *middle* while you are is flying over a tree of thorns. You owe the Kite Oracle a lamb. Andrew -- You can FTP the kite FAQ's from ftp.hawaii.edu (directory /pub/rec/kites/faq) /-\ () >< () |\/| () >< () /-\ For sale: 10' Flexis with std & UF Spars, 10m Peel (I want the new reefers) What should I know? I can't even axel yet :-( = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 30 Oct 1994 20:11:39 -1000 From: tanaka_be@swam1.enet.dec.com (Bert Tanaka) Message-Id: <9410310609.AA21745@mts-gw.pa.dec.com> Organization: Division of Applied Sciences, Harvard University Subject: Re: Knots and Line Strength jtavo@aol.com" "JTavo" writes about: /Knots and line strength (again) /Test procedures and results that indicate that line breaks do /not occur at the knot. Nice to have metcha' at the convention, John. 8^) FWIW, my results are different. In truth, nowadays, about the only time I break a line is from line hits from flying team. Tying the line together on the field as a quick fix just to get through the practice, consistently ended up with the line breaking later on, at the knot. To test this, I got some old 150# line and took the ends and wrapped each of them several times around two steel bars. Then, while stepping on one bar, pulled up on the other until the line broke (I also draped a towel over the line so I wouldn't get snapped in the face). Then, I tied the two lines together with three overhand knots. Repositioned the line, pulled up and promptly broke it, at the knot, using much less force. Actually, you don't really have to break the line first. Just cut it in two and join the ends together so that the knots don't slip. In the field, my temporary fix was to just tie one overhand knot and put a dab of crazy glue on the ends to keep the knot from slipping. For this test, I tried overlapping the three knots, and also tying them in a series. I was careful to keep the lines untwisted with each other in the knots and set them before trying to break the line. The difference in force needed to break a rejoined knotted line, and an unbroken line is large - not measured scientifically, but easily detectable by the senses. Simply putting an overhand knot in a section of unbroken line seemed to have no effect. Possible variables. I tested with used, stretched line. My knots although tied with care, may still not be done optimally, but if this is the case, then I need to sleeve because I tie a lousy knot. I didn't test for the knot used to hold end loops, although I suspect that the loop itself may relieve some of the stress that in a midline knot, is applied directly to that knot. Even so, knowing how easy it is for me to break the line at a midline knot still encourages sleeving. The difference in results is puzzling. Any ideas? -Bert = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 04:26:55 -1000 From: sasaki@das.harvard.edu (Marty Sasaki) Message-Id: <392urf$sva@necco.harvard.edu> Organization: Harvard University OIT/NSD Subject: Re: Knots and Line Strength In article <9410310609.AA21745@mts-gw.pa.dec.com>, tanaka_be@swam1.enet.dec.com (Bert Tanaka) writes: >FWIW, my results are different. In truth, nowadays, about the only time >I break a line is from line hits from flying team. Tying the line >together on the field as a quick fix just to get through the practice, >consistently ended up with the line breaking later on, at the knot. The best way to repair a break in the line is to splice it. I've had good results with splicing line, no breaks at the splice or for several feet in either direction from a splice. If you are using heavier spectra (teams tend to do this) splicing is pretty easy. I don't the patience to splice line smaller than 150 pound or so. As for tieing knots, try a different knot Bert. Overhand and square knots don't hold very well in Spectra and do significantly weaken the knot, as you have found. I've used the blood knot (or barrell knot) or a pair of uni-knots with pretty good results. -- Marty Sasaki Harvard University Sasaki Kite Fabrications sasaki@noc.harvard.edu Network Services Division 26 Green Street 617-496-4320 10 Ware Street Jamaica Plain, MA 02130 Cambridge, MA 02138-4002 phone/fax: 617-522-8546 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =