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      One two three four five six  - I'm on seven.
    
    
      We're on.
    
    
      It's probably the P_Z_Ms. 
    
    
      Yeah. 
    
    
      So, I think we pre-crashed, so I think we're O_K.
    
    
      Pre-crashed.
    
    
      So it should be a really short meeting, I hope.
    
    
      Uh, agenda items, number one, I wanna talk - since we were just discussing that - is microphone issues. What the heck are we gonna do about microphones?
    
    
      So uh I got passed on that the E_D_U group doesn't like the
    
    
      
    
    
      Oh.
    
    
      uh, Crown mikes.  I  do. I l- I think - I find them very comfortable. Uh, but it seems to depend on your head shape.
    
    
      Who does? 
    
    
      I do.
    
    
      Yeah, I do too.
    
    
      So you guys need to start going to the E_D_U meetings.
    
    
      I see.
    
    
      Yeah right.
    
    
      They don't work for me very well. I much prefer these.
    
    
      That's right.
    
    
      Yep. Um,
    
    
      Yeah.
    
    
      Me too.
    
    
      So do I.
    
    
      I  prefer  these, but I don't mind using those.
    
    
      Right.
    
    
      Th- those are intimidating.
    
    
      So apparently they - they like
    
    
      It has one good effect, that people are trying to get there early because the people who get there early get to pick the mike.
    
    
      
    
    
       O_K.
    
    
      
    
    
      Interesting.
    
    
      People who show up late have to use  these.  So,
    
    
      um, we should probably get different mikes. So the question is, the easiest thing to do is certainly to just get two more, um,
    
    
       Sony  mikes.
    
    
      Just two more of  those,  um. And that - that's easy and that will certainly work.
    
    
      The other option is to try yet another mike.
    
    
      
    
    
      Find one we like and potentially get  six,  all the  same. 
    
    
      I have a question about this.
    
    
      Are the auditory quality - Is it, uh, much different between this kind and the - the fancy ones?
    
    
      Um,  these  are better, if they're worn correctly.
    
    
      They are.
    
    
      O_K.
    
    
      Those are better than the Sonys?
    
    
      Have you -
    
    
      Yeah.
    
    
      Yeah, definitely.
    
    
      Have you  listened  to - to  them?
    
    
      Yeah.
    
    
      Yeah?
    
    
      Yeah.
    
    
      O_K.
    
    
      So, I mean, they're  not  a  lot  better, but they  are  a  little  better.
    
    
      Are they more directional, the microphones, as far as -
    
    
      Um, they're more directional, a little better error - uh, noise cancellation, and also you can really get it right in front of your mouth, like this, whereas that one, to avoid breath noise, you really have to put it at - to the side.
    
    
      O_K.
    
    
      So you seem to get better signal with this one.
    
    
      The other thing is, is it just a few people who don't like them in the E_D_U group? Cuz -
    
    
      I don't know, but - you know, in - in sort of random polling 
    
    
      L- Liz - Liz said something that leaves me believing that  nobody  likes them.
    
    
      They are ver-
    
    
      Gosh, cuz I  much  prefer them, I think they're a whole lot, multiple levels, better.
    
    
      It seems a shame t- to discard -  discard  them if - if they're better auditory quality and there're only a few people who dis- who object.
    
    
      I mean, so s-
    
    
      Right.
    
    
      Yeah, that's why I was saying if we could just unplug them and plug them in.
    
    
      Well, I mean, that's the other option, is that we could switch the form so it's more obvious the distinction between channel and mike, um, and then get
    
    
      
    
    
      You know, pretty -
    
    
      
    
    
      duplicates. I mean, there's no problem with that. It's just - what -
    
    
      Hmm.
    
    
      Should we get just more  Sony  ones? I  hate  the  Sony  ones.
    
    
      Which ones are those?
    
    
      b- the one you're wearing. Because it - it pinches -
    
    
      The one I'm wearing? Oh.
    
    
      Those.
    
    
      pinches the  temples  too much.
    
    
      Oh.
    
    
       And -
    
    
      I mean, so, if you  wear  it sort of around the  back,  it's not  too  bad.
    
    
      Yeah.
    
    
      I hate it because it's hard to adjust the  microphone.  I mean, I spend all this time fumbling around with it and  still  not
    
    
      Yeah.
    
    
      But I -
    
    
      Right.
    
    
      reasonable, yeah.
    
    
      Right.
    
    
      So, I mean, we could try another mike.
    
    
      But then we have the wiring issue, and -   So I - I don't know  what  to do. What do - what do people think?
    
    
      But the problem is again the - the plug, or - ? 
    
    
      Wh-
    
    
      The plug is proprietary. So that's why I was saying getting more  Sony  ones is trivial, because we can just go out and buy them. Any other ones we have to buy them in pigtail versions and get them wired.
    
    
      O_K.
    
    
      O_K.
    
    
      O_K.
    
    
      Yeah.
    
    
      
    
    
      O_K, n- now may- maybe I just don't know this but, um, are the only two possibilities from  Sony  the two that we've  tried?  Or is there another -
    
    
      Yes.
    
    
      So, the only possibilities from Sony are  that  one and the lapel mike.
    
    
      I see. O_K.
    
    
      O_K.
    
    
      Oh, I see.
    
    
      So this isn't Sony. This is Crown. The one we're wearing.
    
    
      Isn't that something. O_K.
    
    
      And so we had these wired for us.
    
    
      Oh. I see. O_K.
    
    
      Well, it s- It seems like right  now  if - if u- what they're complaining are  those,  if we just got two more of  these  - 
    
    
      And so -
    
    
      Huh, I remember that now.
    
    
      I think that's probably the right first step is just get two more immediately, and have them available.
    
    
      Yeah.
    
    
      O_K.
    
    
      And then they can just unplug those from the -
    
    
      Right.
    
    
      And just make sure that you write down "Crown" or "Sony" on the mike number, which I'll change to mike type, or something like that.
    
    
      transmitter.
    
    
      Mm-hmm.
    
    
      Mm-hmm.
    
    
      Yeah.
    
    
      It might be good to double check at the end of the meeting too, cuz that would be an easy place for, uh, an error in the data.
    
    
      Yep.
    
    
      For it to be forgotten.
    
    
      Well, it'll be me -
    
    
      It'll be whoever's setting up the meeting, who fills out the key file, so
    
    
      O_K, it's just - I'm just thinking that if - it'd be - yeah, but I know - but I mean to have the  user  fill it out wouldn't be as reliable as have the - 
    
    
      It has the same potential for error as everything else.
    
    
      No, no, we definitely would  not  have the user fill it out. It would be me, Chuck, or Liz, depending on which meeting it is.
    
    
      Good, O_K.
    
    
      Perfect.
    
    
      Perfect, O_K.
    
    
      O_K, so we'll de- definitely go ahead and do that.
    
    
      How much is it just to buy the mike?
    
    
      Couple hundred.
    
    
      Really.
    
    
      Yeah.
    
    
      Is that more or less than you thought?
    
    
      It depends on how good the mike is.
    
    
      Oh that's  way  more than I thought. I - yeah.
    
    
      Oh, O_K.
    
    
      Yeah.
    
    
      For one of  these? 
    
    
      Well the  Crown  ones were like two-fifty. I think  those  are like one-ninety.
    
    
      God.
    
    
      Oops.  
    
    
      Wow!
    
    
      But.
    
    
      Is there any educational discount? 
    
    
      Yeah right. 
    
    
      
    
    
      
    
    
      
    
    
      
    
    
      No. 
    
    
      Student discount.
    
    
      Yeah, good mikes are expensive. So.
    
    
      And when I was at Computer Motion we used Shure, the S_M-ten-A's, and I  think  they were only like eighty  bucks  or something.
    
    
      Mm-hmm.
    
    
      Yeah, eighty or ninety for the Shures. So.
    
    
      Yeah. But they were - they seemed pretty good.
    
    
      I mean, the  Sony  ones are expensive because they're proprietary, so they can charge whatever they want. These are expensive because they're quite high quality. So.
    
    
      Oh.
    
    
      Right, right.
    
    
      So we should buzz  that out if we send the data to Sony.
    
    
      
    
    
      
    
    
      
    
    
      
    
    
      Ah, come on.
    
    
      
    
    
      
    
    
      
    
    
      We should keep a list of things we're gonna bleep out and the conditions under which - 
    
    
      
    
    
      Well, I'm just joking.
    
    
      So, you do  not  have to bleep that out. I don't mind if Sony knows my opinion. So.
    
    
      
    
    
      Hmm.
    
    
      Um.
    
    
      Also, we're pro- I wanna double check with Morgan, he  did  say yes  before  I went to Japan on buying another wireless system so that we can go all wireless, instead of the mix of wired and wireless. And I think that's the right thing to do.
    
    
      So then all those red channels there would become wireless ones?
    
    
      And I'm -
    
    
      Yeah.
    
    
      Yep.
    
    
      Cool.
    
    
      Yep.
    
    
       Uh-huh. 
    
    
      Four more wireless.
    
    
      Um.
    
    
      And also I'm gonna re-  probably  replace the Andrea mike with a Shure, but I'll test it, uh, sometime today or tomorrow to make sure the Shure one really works, cuz I have an extra Shure in my office.
    
    
      The Andrea mike?
    
    
      Yeah.
    
    
      Yeah, apparently it's had some problems.
    
    
      That's causing problems, yeah.
    
    
      Which one is the Andrea mike?
    
    
      It was over here sometimes.
    
    
      A wired one?
    
    
      The - yeah a wired one.
    
    
      Yeah. It's uh -
    
    
      Well, if you're gonna go to all wireless,
    
    
      Oh, you mean in the meantime.
    
    
      This one.
    
    
      In the meantime, right, because uh -
    
    
      Ah, I see.
    
    
      Yeah.
    
    
      
    
    
      it'll - it'll probably take a couple weeks to get it delivered from Sony anyway.
    
    
      Yeah.
    
    
      I haven't - In the meetings that I recorded s-
    
    
      So -
    
    
      It's always been at most six people, so I've never had to -
    
    
      Oh really? Yeah.
    
    
      Recently I haven't had to used any of the wired ones at all.
    
    
      I guess cuz everyone's been out of town. Probably over the summer it'll be the same cuz it tends to be less,
    
    
      Yeah.
    
    
      fewer people.
    
    
      Um,
    
    
      File -
    
    
      Uh, done with microphone issues, I think?
    
    
      
    
    
      Should we close the door?
    
    
      If you want.
    
    
      Oh, I'm thinking - I don't know about the acoustics. That's - that's all I was wondering about.
    
    
      And this way we can get a door-slam in the uh - in the transcript file.
    
    
      Yeah. 
    
    
      Yeah that's right, we gotta get the obligatory door-slam. 
    
    
      
    
    
      Oh well. No- not quite a slam.
    
    
      
    
    
      
    
    
      There's some knocks.
    
    
      
    
    
      
    
    
      
    
    
      Get a special phone for that.
    
    
      Mm-hmm.
    
    
      Uh, the door-slam phone?
    
    
      I guess, right, the door-slam phone. 
    
    
      Yeah.
    
    
      You have a special phone?
    
    
      No, we could add one.
    
    
      Oh, we could add one, yeah.
    
    
      And then we could have the  phone  phone,
    
    
      Yeah.
    
    
      
    
    
       That's an idea.
    
    
      for - for when the phone rings.
    
    
      
    
    
      Um,
    
    
      Uh, file reorganization.
    
    
      This is something we were talking about  before  I left and saying we should probably wait until  after  I'm  back,  and now I'm back, so, we should do that at some point. So we should
    
    
      get ourselves a list of everything we wanna do to reorganize the file structure and anything else.
    
    
       
    
    
      Can I - can I just mention something?
    
    
      Sure.
    
    
      Um, uh, I think the file regards reorganization. Also, um, another issue there is disk space probably, right? Um, so
    
    
      Mm-hmm.
    
    
      I know that the files that you've been cutting up for us
    
    
      f- for the recognition experiments, uh, one way - one really
    
    
      Mm-hmm.
    
    
      brain -
    
    
      uh, brain-dead way of - of - of
    
    
      not causing any trouble, but saving disk space is to, uh, use the s- the
    
    
      Sphere, the NIST, uh, W_encode program.
    
    
      to - to encode, you know, to compress them.
    
    
      Shorten. Is that the same as shorten?
    
    
      Uh, yeah, but it does it s- it happens so that the program that reads the waveforms does the unshortening transparently.
    
    
      Yeah.
    
    
      Well, O_K, you mean it's built into the S_R_I, because we have the same thing with shorten in the  sound  tools.
    
    
      So.
    
    
      Y- uh, I  guess,  but it
    
    
      um,
    
    
      So it's just a question of - of what decompression is built into your tools.
    
    
      Well, it's -
    
    
       Well like - Hhh. 
    
    
      It's actually built into the Sphere library that NIST delivers, so - Right.
    
    
      Oh really? I didn't know that.
    
    
      And actually, s- the sound tools  don't  understand that.
    
    
      For the -
    
    
      At least Feacalc doesn't.
    
    
      At least  Feacalc  doesn't. So.
    
    
      Well, that's not a sound tool, right.
    
    
      But since - since these files are made to be used with the S_R_I recognizer,
    
    
      uh and the S_R_I front-end uses the Sphere library which in turn does this
    
    
      transparently
    
    
      um,
    
    
      uh, that will be a quick and -
    
    
      quick and easy way to just, uh, get you know, uh, be able to use more -
    
    
      Yeah.
    
    
      Mm-hmm.
    
    
      The other thing I could do to relieve some of the pressure um is just move everything
    
    
      to my eighteen gig  disk,  which is local.
    
    
      But that's gonna be only  temporary.  
    
    
      Well,
    
    
      I mean, I don't know -
    
    
      I mean, you should do that too,
    
    
      probably, but - but as you do that you can also just run the -
    
    
      Yeah, it is kind of a temporary solution.
    
    
      To shorten everything.
    
    
      well, actually, the - th- what you do is you run -
    
    
      Oh, now I have another use for the - 
    
    
      The way I recently used it, and there might be better ways - So the program's called W_encode.
    
    
      Mmm.
    
    
      And I think the type, y- you say um
    
    
      I think dash T_ and then there are different -
    
    
      different encoding methods, but if you wanna use the shorten one, you say d- "minus T_ shorten",
    
    
      and then the old
    
    
      uh wavefile and the  new 
    
    
      wavefile, and then - Oops!  And then I check, you know, if this works, so, you can use the -
    
    
      the shell "AND" operator or something.
    
    
      Then I just move the
    
    
      new wavefile to the,
    
    
      you know, to the old
    
    
      Right.
    
    
      wavefile, and then you have replaced the old one with one that behaves identically as long as your programs that use it know how to
    
    
      Mm-hmm.
    
    
      decode it on the fly.
    
    
      And that -
    
    
      O_K.
    
    
      that just saved my butt because I actually was running - On a different experiment, I had
    
    
      segmented -
    
    
      I was processing the whole Switchboard-two corpus, which is two hundred eighty hours of speech,
    
    
      and I was noticing, as I was
    
    
      almost finishing the processing, that I was running out of disk space. 
    
    
      Mm-hmm.
    
    
      And - and so
    
    
      I uh had this flash of inspiration of just uh the same - the same disk had the segmented waveforms on them, so I -
    
    
      
    
    
      Shortening everything on the fly. 
    
    
      while this other thing was still going  on,  I was run- I was running this -  this  thing. 
    
    
      You had another process running that was shortening it. Yep.
    
    
      
    
    
      Wow, wow!
    
    
      And low and behold I gained three g- three gig of space and um, you know -  
    
    
      Wow!
    
    
      
    
    
      Did you have to re-nice one of the processes to make sure that "shorten"?
    
    
      No, no.  Actually it was fast enough. This is very fast. This - this really runs quickly. And that's -
    
    
      
    
    
      
    
    
      Wow.
    
    
      That must have been suspenseful. 
    
    
       Watching the disk meter.
    
    
      That was  very   suspenseful.  That was - that was the most excitement I had all weekend. Uh, uh boy, it uh  came out just fine. So. 
    
    
      
    
    
      
    
    
      
    
    
      To be O_K. 
    
    
      You know what would be a -
    
    
      u- I don't know if this would mess other things up, but -
    
    
      It seems like kind of a pain to have all these split up files around. What would be easier would be like pointers.
    
    
      The list, yep.
    
    
      You know, lists like "original wavefile, start, end".
    
    
      Start end.
    
    
      This is -
    
    
      Yep, the way  Feacalc   - calc does it.
    
    
      Right, the - the only reason we do this is because the - the S_R_I front-end doesn't have a way to - to um 
    
    
      go into a l- a longer file with indices.
    
    
      Um, so I - I suppose
    
    
      And segment on the fly. 
    
    
      someone could try to put a hack like that into the - 
    
    
      It would be easy.
    
    
      It wouldn't be hard at all. Someone just needs to d- sit down and do it who has some time.
    
    
      So.
    
    
      But there's also some - I guess -
    
    
      And that way we wouldn't have multiple versions floating around. About the only difficulty with that is if it's  compressed. 
    
    
      Then you really  do  have to decompress it  first. 
    
    
      That's true.
    
    
      Right? Because the pointers are -
    
    
      Y- you don't know how much it's comp-
    
    
      Well, is there - is there - is there a NIST routine which
    
    
      It doesn't compress it by a fixed amount.
    
    
      Exactly. Right right right right right.
    
    
      can seek
    
    
      in a compressed file but with uncompressed indices?
    
    
      I don't think so.
    
    
      And  yeah I mean, that - it -
    
    
      No, no. I mean, if you -
    
    
      Th- the - the - the -
    
    
      If you can operate on the full -
    
    
      If you  don't  have to  segment  it, then there would be less of a reason to do the  compression,  because you don't have that wasted -
    
    
      
    
    
      Right.
    
    
      that extra  copy.  So.
    
    
      Right we - I mean the original  Switchboard  files are not compressed, right? So we could leave those as they  are. 
    
    
      Yeah.
    
    
      Right.
    
    
      Well, I mean, it just depends on how much disk space is a problem. I mean the - what you could do is decompress it to a temporary place and then operate on it and then delete it.
    
    
      Right.
    
    
      But.
    
    
      I mean, the segmentation also  saves  you space in the sense that you cut out all the  nonspeech  regions.
    
    
      Just silences, yeah.
    
    
      And if you have, you know, twenty channels and only five speakers, then it's -
    
    
      That's true.
    
    
      Mm-hmm.
    
    
      Well, assuming you'd - Yeah. Assuming that you then off-load the original
    
    
      Yeah.
    
    
      Switchboard files.
    
    
      So.
    
    
      
    
    
      Mmm.
    
    
      Yeah.
    
    
      Well, it seems like just shortening them is a good short-term solution so we don't have to do any coding.
    
    
      Yeah, yeah.
    
    
      Yeah.
    
    
      But I think - kind of - We've had - There was a big disk crash when you were gone and -
    
    
      So.
    
    
      No, it was - I was still here. It was the day I left. 
    
    
      Oh was that the day you left?
    
    
      
    
    
      That's suspicious.
    
    
      
    
    
      He did it on purpose.
    
    
      Yeah.
    
    
      
    
    
      Leave to Japan the day the disk crashes.
    
    
      No if I - if I had done it on purpose I would have timed it right  after  I left. 
    
    
      
    
    
      
    
    
      
    
    
      
    
    
      
    
    
      But, um - Yeah so, Chuck helped me out in, uh, r-
    
    
      regenerating all the cha- the different channel files for like a few meetings - for like six meetings. So I think they're split up even further. It's kind of even more disorganized now since
    
    
      Mm-hmm.
    
    
      
    
    
      we moved some of the meetings to different directories.
    
    
      They're on a different disk even, right?
    
    
      Are they?
    
    
      I think - you - didn't you expand them to X_E on Abbott?
    
    
      X_F.
    
    
      No, you - the ones that
    
    
      Oh, different ones?
    
    
      You - the ones that you put them on when you put them on X_E.
    
    
      I don't remember where I put them now.
    
    
      I think you put them on X_E. So.
    
    
      O_K.
    
    
      Well what we - what we found out was that um the disk that crashed
    
    
      was - it - w- with a - with a meta disk allocation, you had both c- t- transcripts and the shortened files and the expanded files were all on X_E - were on the same - sorry, different partitions of the same physical disk.
    
    
      Physical disk.
    
    
      Mmm.
    
    
      And it's conceivable I mean, I - I don't - I mean, so um, I was told that it's  possible  that that might have, uh, caused additional wear on it. Maybe caused it to - to go bad sooner.
    
    
      Well, I think there was something else going on, because uh Dave Johnson said that D_D was getting accessed  frequently.  And it  shouldn't  be.
    
    
      Hmm.
    
    
      Oh. Uh-huh.
    
    
      Right? That data never gets touched, because we write it once and then we never touch it again.
    
    
      Well, why not?
    
    
      Oh sure it does.
    
    
      Yeah, after each meeting we copy the data to -
    
    
      Except that -
    
    
      Well, I mean, so the wavefiles, or - or anything at all, because the transcripts are there as well.
    
    
      The wave files.
    
    
      I mean, he was saying gigabytes.
    
    
      Oh, gigabytes. I see.
    
    
      And so, it has to be the wave files.
    
    
      Yeah, there  was  something weird about that.
    
    
      Yeah, that's right.
    
    
      Yeah, so I asked Dave about it and he hasn't looked into it yet, but we should definitely double check on it.
    
    
      Yeah like - like the same
    
    
      meeting - shortened, files that we pull off of Popcorn when we're done doing the recording,
    
    
      Yeah.
    
    
      looked,
    
    
      to the  backup  software, as if they had been written,
    
    
      you know, every single  night, 
    
    
      Every night.
    
    
      Is that right.
    
    
      i- for - f- you know, a week in a  row,  which is really weird.
    
    
      That's  very  strange. I didn't realize that. O_K.
    
    
      Wow.
    
    
      So at any rate, so for file reorganization we need to  first  decide what we're gonna do and then when we're gonna do it.
    
    
      Yeah.
    
    
      So I'm not sure who isn't involved with that. I mean, certainly me, Chuck and Jane. Anyone else  care?
    
    
      
    
    
      
    
    
      And I - and I'd like, in terms of the conventions, to also, uh, you know, s- send a bit to Dan Ellis to see if it's - if there's any - get his input on it. I don't think - I don't think that'll be - Yeah.
    
    
      No.
    
    
      Right.
    
    
      
    
    
      So, maybe we should do that
    
    
      Yeah.
    
    
       not  during this meeting but s- another time, and just get a list of everything we're gonna do.
    
    
      Yeah.
    
    
      Yeah.
    
    
      Yeah.
    
    
      Maybe n- next week if we  could.  I'm trying to finish up some stuff.
    
    
      O_K.
    
    
      Yeah sure. I'd like to -
    
    
      So just update all the naming conventions and
    
    
      put all the files where they really belong, on one disk,
    
    
      That sounds like a good idea.
    
    
      and then leave - leave everything in place until the back-up - until the next full back-up and then delete the old ones.
    
    
      Mm-hmm.
    
    
      O_K, now - and you're just - you're not talking about the s- the X_ disks - the X_ uh partitions, just the backed up space, or - ? 
    
    
      So.
    
    
      Well,  both  need to be reorganized.
    
    
      O_K.
    
    
      So um,
    
    
      
    
    
      various paths, th- I mean this is why we have to do it in a synchronized way, because um
    
    
      
    
    
      I think we should also at the same time try to, uh, convert over to your new naming conventions.
    
    
      Yes,
    
    
      exactly. That too.
    
    
      That'd be good.
    
    
      So that's what I was saying. We need to get a list of all that stuff that we wanna do.
    
    
      Yeah.
    
    
      O_K.
    
    
      And so
    
    
      I didn't really get any responses from the naming conventions that I sent out, so I assume that's alright with everyone.
    
    
      I actually haven't looked at it yet. I haven't had a chance, so. 
    
    
      No.
    
    
      Hmm. 
    
    
      I haven't either. Sorry. 
    
    
      Oh.
    
    
      
    
    
       And -
    
    
      I will by next  week,  though. 
    
    
      Uh, I don't know about the naming, I mean,
    
    
      O_K.
    
    
      Then I should have made that as an agenda item.
    
    
      Th- so these names that we've been using so far are with uh
    
    
      uh
    
    
      uh
    
    
      I wouldn't just wanna change them
    
    
      you know, without some advance notice.
    
    
      Right.
    
    
      I mean, th- that's all these  segment  names that we- we've been using. I would rather not mess with them
    
    
      Yeah.
    
    
      Yeah, I'm -
    
    
      until we have some closure on some of the things we are currently
    
    
      Right.
    
    
      dealing with, so -
    
    
      Well, I mean, how  you  choose to do it - the naming is up to you.
    
    
      Right.
    
    
      Well,
    
    
      So.
    
    
      You're talking about different files.
    
    
      I mean, it should probably be -  eventually  should probably be consistent with what you're doing but,
    
    
      Yep.
    
    
      yeah, I kind of agree with Andreas, like I'm a little bit -
    
    
      I mean, these -
    
    
      I  looked  at the naming conventions and they look fine to me, but at the same time it was just like you know to rename everything would be -
    
    
      Well, if we -
    
    
      If  we  change things, it won't really affect what  you're  doing, will it?
    
    
      This -
    
    
      No but I think just to be consistent we should also, I mean, have the same conventions, just in case you want -
    
    
      Right.
    
    
      Yeah. So you - but you can switch that any time you want, right?
    
    
      Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's only gonna affect my work. So.
    
    
      Yeah, it's not gonna -
    
    
      I mean, if we -
    
    
      I assume you're not gonna go, like, into, you know,  my  directories and change  my  file names. So. Yeah. 
    
    
       Everybody will use it.  Fine slash U_ slash star. 
    
    
      Right. 
    
    
      I - Actually I was gonna do a global search-replace on all entries at -
    
    
      
    
    
      
    
    
      
    
    
      
    
    
      at ICSI to change M_R to M_R_M at all places at ICSI. 
    
    
      
    
    
      Yeah, that'd be great.
    
    
      
    
    
      Really enjoy that.
    
    
      
    
    
      
    
    
      With no - with no advance warning.
    
    
      Y- you -
    
    
      
    
    
      
    
    
      Well, maybe I shouldn't say that on re- record.
    
    
      
    
    
      O_K.
    
    
      There was a
    
    
      typo in some of the contracts that Morgan got that someone,
    
    
      
    
    
      one of our sponsors, did a global sear- search and replace for - between "sponsor" and  their  name.
    
    
      Mm-hmm.
    
    
       Oh no, oh no.
    
    
      
    
    
      
    
    
      And so, it - it was saying, uh -
    
    
      Well, anyway, I won't -
    
    
      Yeah, one - one can imagine that that might be problematic. 
    
    
      I'm not sure whether that's right.
    
    
      
    
    
      Yeah, one can imagine the problems that that would  engender.
    
    
      
    
    
      But this - this name change affects a subset, doesn't need to reflect everything, yeah.
    
    
      So.
    
    
      Right.
    
    
      Right.
    
    
      
    
    
      Um,
    
    
      
    
    
      Thilo, you had - you wanted to talk about the -
    
    
      Yeah, I had one - one short point. I have just installed a Transcriber version on one of our N_T machines so it's available under Windows now.
    
    
      Oh great. Actually someone - I just got an email this week from someone as-
    
    
      Isn't that great?
    
    
      Yeah I re- responded to sh- I have already responded to him. I - I don't know what - what - what he - what the problem was. It was really straightforward, really easy.
    
    
      To Anant?
    
    
      And this is not - Mm-hmm.
    
    
      Oh, I'm sorry, I - I just - So, who did you talk to?
    
    
      There was some - some guy from S_R_I who wanted to - to install - Yeah.
    
    
      Anant?
    
    
      Anant Venkataraman? O_K.
    
    
      Yeah.
    
    
      And he sent an email that he couldn't - couldn't install it and I - I just described him, well, what I did and it was really straightforward, so.   
    
    
      Yeah, O_K. Great.
    
    
      Yeah, O_K.
    
    
      Great. Great. Thanks. Thanks.
    
    
      And this is not just the Transcriber, this is the Channeltrans, right?
    
    
      Yeah, it's the Channeltrans, so the -
    
    
      Yeah.
    
    
      Yeah, excellent.
    
    
      the
    
    
      Cool.
    
    
      things that Dave Gelbart -
    
    
      Excellent.
    
    
      So you should probably talk to a Sys Admin and get it put in some central place.
    
    
      
    
    
      
    
    
      So that it'll work on all the N_T machines.
    
    
      
    
    
      Well, I mean, as it stands, I - I guess - yeah I see what you mean. It'll - it'll be on the - on the UNIX side but accessible through the H_drive. Yeah.
    
    
      O_K.
    
    
      I've -
    
    
      Right.
    
    
      O_K. Yeah. I could do that.
    
    
      So I assume Tcl-T_K wasn't already on the machine, so you had to install it. Yeah.
    
    
      
    
    
      I had i- to install it, yeah.
    
    
      
    
    
      Huh. Yeah.
    
    
      Uh
    
    
      So Andreas, would it be appropriate to ask how the experiments are going?
    
    
      Uh -
    
    
      Oh, well, yeah I - I - I actually wasn't sure whether this is the right meeting for it, because it has uh very little to do with - with  meeting  recordings, but
    
    
      Hmm.
    
    
      
    
    
        you know, I did uh run 
    
    
      um some recognition experiments with ICSI  front-end. 
    
    
      Um
    
    
      Uh, and - and you know, this is the j- joint work with Chuck, and uh,
    
    
      um.
    
    
      So, first,
    
    
      uh, you know, we had -
    
    
      we figured out sometime last week how to
    
    
      um -
    
    
      and - and Chuck wrote this really nice little
    
    
      script - Perl script that
    
    
      takes a uh waveform, runs the feature calculation
    
    
      and then dumps it out into the - into um
    
    
      a f- c- so-called
    
    
      uh cepstra file, which is what the S_R_I system uses to read features. It's essentially uh
    
    
      uh NIST headered
    
    
      uh waveform. You know, it looks like a waveform except instead of samples you have  feature  vectors following the header.
    
    
      Hmm.
    
    
      Mm-hmm.
    
    
      And um that's all done
    
    
      um
    
    
      by the script, and it works great. And
    
    
      uh I first trained up two
    
    
      systems, because it's gender-dep- you know, the S_R_I system is gender-dependent so to be comparable, I trained uh um on a sh- on a so-called short training set
    
    
      um
    
    
      a male system and a female system,
    
    
      and
    
    
      uh also for debugging purposes, and for the heck of it, I trained um -
    
    
      trained uh on the same training set uh a standard system with the  S_R_I  front-end from  scratch, 
    
    
      um, and compared the two -
    
    
      So, w- what features did you use?
    
    
      Well, we used, uh, twelve P_L_P uh, uh -
    
    
      So not RASTA, just P_L_P.
    
    
      Just P_L_P.
    
    
      Just P_L_P and actually that - uh, one of the questions I had was what the RASTA would possibly buy us. But um, we'll
    
    
      talk about that later. So, the uh - so the baseline system - w- the S_R_I system was - uh used - uh also uh uh used t- twelve uh mel - uh mel cepstra
    
    
      um  based on a twenty-four filter bank
    
    
      um analysis.
    
    
      Um
    
    
      I do  not 
    
    
      know what - So the f- the bandwidth of the um
    
    
       S_R_I  front-end is from hundreds hertz to th- th- thirty-se- thirty-seven fifty or something like that.
    
    
      Thirty-seven fifty.
    
    
      And I do not know what the um
    
    
      ICSI um
    
    
      front-end would do. I mean, what the bandwidth is.
    
    
      Um,
    
    
      
    
    
      but the results are such that uh, let's see -
    
    
      There's one other slight difference, right? Or two -  two  differences.
    
    
      Oh yeah. So the S_R_I system also does um
    
    
      vocal tract length normalization and we couldn't figure out how to do that yet with the ICSI features. So that's one difference. And the other difference is that
    
    
      in the, uh -
    
    
      
    
    
      in the S_R_I system,
    
    
      the uh th- the first - the C_zero, the energy uh feature is normalized slightly differently from the rest. And what they do is
    
    
      Huh.
    
    
      they d- they subtract the maximum -
    
    
      For each waveform segment
    
    
      they subtract the maximum of - of th- over that waveform segment from
    
    
      from the values of - for that waveform.
    
    
      Which is a kind of automatic gain control, that is localized -
    
    
      Do they subtract the max from each i- one or do they subtract each one from the max?
    
    
       Who cares?
    
    
      They subtract -
    
    
      
    
    
      Doesn't matter?
    
    
      No, just would be a sign change.
    
    
      Except you get a lot of negatives the other way. 
    
    
      Right,  right, right. Um, and  then,  after - But after they done this waveform based normalization, they  then  do a  conversation  length normalization just like all the other features.
    
    
      So it's their kind of two stage normalization.
    
    
      Oh! 
    
    
      Oh! 
    
    
      Um now, I understand that the common practice  here  has been to just do c- standard uh mean subtraction, um on the waveform.
    
    
      Um.
    
    
      For the C_zero.
    
    
      Right. But in what  we've  done so far, because we didn't have any special provision for  C_zero , we just treat it as - as any of the  other  features, we've done standard mean subtraction over the whole
    
    
      conversation side.
    
    
      So
    
    
      um since both S_R_I and ICSI use this sort of local normalization for C_zero that's presumably, you know, someone has done some experiments to - and found out that that works better.
    
    
      Um, so that's another difference, and that might account for some of the
    
    
      discrepancies in the results. Um, but you know. So the
    
    
      the  results  are 
    
    
       um
    
    
      Where should I start? Uh
    
    
      the -
    
    
      So there's a two -
    
    
      Oh. I tried it  with  and  without.  Uh.
    
    
      So  without 
    
    
      and with  adaptation. 
    
    
      How many iterations?
    
    
      For the adaptation?
    
    
      Mm-hmm.
    
    
      Well, y- we always do three E_M iterations to
    
    
      O_K.
    
    
      and it's - it's this - it's this quick and dirty -
    
    
      the  phone  loop adaptation which doesn't actually require prior recognition paths and - and so this is not the best you can  do  with adaptation, but it gives you sort of a first
    
    
      idea of what you could gain with it.
    
    
      And then, you know, so we have the
    
    
      the S_R_I front-end
    
    
      and the ICSI front-end
    
    
      and other than that the system configuration was identical. So it was the same -
    
    
      They came up with um
    
    
      you know, same number of uh Gaussians per state cluster
    
    
      Um, same - The clustering used the same information loss threshold, which actually led to roughly the same number of Gaussians overall. So that the system configuration is - is comparable.
    
    
      Um, and the -
    
    
      
    
    
      Uh, so  without  adaptation,
    
    
      you had forty-nine p-
    
    
      That's error rate or recognition rate?
    
    
      This is error rate
    
    
      in percent.
    
    
      And
    
    
      with adaptation
    
    
      it's forty-seven point one
    
    
      and
    
    
      this - this was fifty-two point six.
    
    
      and
    
    
      fifty-one point three
    
    
      Hmm.
    
    
      and then, when I combined them - I can actually combine them with
    
    
      something like ROVER. It's actually more sophisticated than ROVER but it's - 
    
    
      Um, here I got
    
    
      forty-eight point five
    
    
      and here I got forty-six point five.
    
    
      So this is just combination at the utterance level.
    
    
      Um.
    
    
      At the utterance level, right.
    
    
      Why do you think the ICSI front-end is so much  worse? 
    
    
      Good  question.    That's fine .
    
    
      That seems really odd to me.
    
    
      Um, so, one percent I would attribute to the lack of V_T_L, about one percent. O_K.
    
    
      Oh right. Right, right, right.
    
    
      O_K. Ah O_K.
    
    
      And then maybe another up - I don't know how much the C_zero normalization business really matters I can't it see, I mean can't see it - the 
    
    
      Ca- can you run the S_R_I - Just as an experiment, run the S_R_I front-end without vocal tract norma- normalization, and see how much difference it makes?
    
    
      I  could.  Yeah.
    
    
      I could certainly do that. Yeah.
    
    
      Um.
    
    
      We could  also  do the vocal tract length normalization with the  ICSI  features. That's something we wanted to do - yeah. We could - I was actually thinking we could use the warping factors that we compute for the M_F_C_C's
    
    
      Yeah.
    
    
      If we could figure out how.
    
    
      Yeah.
    
    
      and just try them with the ICSI
    
    
      uh front-end. Because we already have the capability to apply the warping to the um -
    
    
      to the P_L_P c-  uh Dan added the  -
    
    
      Yeah, Dan added that in, but -
    
    
      Yeah, but the -
    
    
      So.
    
    
      They won't -
    
    
      they don't correspond one-to- one  though.
    
    
      No, but they  should  be
    
    
       close,  since this -
    
    
      
    
    
      I mean the -
    
    
      Anyway. But I can certainly try the S_R_I front-end without uh V_T_L. That sh- that's - that's certainly quick to do.
    
    
      Yeah.
    
    
      Um
    
    
      and so -
    
    
      Yeah, and - and then there's all these um -
    
    
      You know, the number of um -
    
    
      You know, this  front-end 
    
    
      u- had a fair amount of experimentation going into it. You know, how many
    
    
      Mm-hmm.
    
    
      filter banks do you use, what - what bandwidth do you use, and stuff like that. And uh we could play the same kind of games with the  ICSI  front-end.
    
    
      Right.
    
    
      Uh, actually, the  analysis  bandwidth played a very crucial role. We used to use a narrow bandwidth and
    
    
      uh
    
    
      uh that hurt us. So this is, um - And this is - We've now used roughly what everybody else is using. So
    
    
      Hmm.
    
    
      um, there's some room for improvements, I figure, in this - in the ICSI front-end.
    
    
      Um.
    
    
      So.
    
    
      But the good news is that even with this - with the ICSI system being that much  worse,  you still get a win out of  combining  the two.
    
    
      So that gives some hope for the future.
    
    
      Um.
    
    
      Unfortunately however this seems to be reduced with adaptation, so.
    
    
      Um.
    
    
      Also interestingly
    
    
      the -
    
    
      Um, the difference actually  widens.  I would actually expect it or - or  hope  that the adaptation  reduces  the difference  because it might
    
    
      um, for instance,
    
    
      um
    
    
      remove some of the um -
    
    
      
    
    
      You know, som- If you - if you have some - some difference in the front-end processing that
    
    
      uh is suboptimal, but can be possibly remedied by you know moving the
    
    
      um
    
    
      moving the models around. But - but apparently that doesn't -
    
    
      doesn't really - actually the difference becomes larger, so.
    
    
      Um. Anyway. So right now what I'm doing is um -
    
    
      Uh well, there's several things going on. One is that Chuck is working on uh getting the tandem features um into a form that we can train the tandem - the system on the tandem features. So that would actually be the
    
    
      more  interesting  experiment.
    
    
      Um, the other thing is I'm training
    
    
      uh retraining the models on the large training set that we usually use to build our evaluation models and then we can -
    
    
      Right.
    
    
      And I actually  want  to
    
    
      do the  system  combination
    
    
      um  with  our  eval  system um, on some subset of the data at least, probably only for the males, because I don't have time to train both males and females, but um.
    
    
      Uh and um -
    
    
      What about ta-
    
    
      concatenating the two feature vectors into a single one?
    
    
      It gets pretty big.
    
    
      
    
    
      It  does  get pretty big. Yeah.
    
    
      Hmm.
    
    
      And m- my experience with that in Broadcast News was usually combining at other levels works better.
    
    
      Hmm.
    
    
      So.
    
    
      For - for whatever that's worth.
    
    
      Oh, you tried that on Broadcast News? Concatenating
    
    
      Oh yeah.
    
    
      Yeah.
    
    
      So w- Yep.
    
    
      different feature sets? Yeah.
    
    
      Did you try uh -
    
    
      It was mostly M_S_G, P_L_P, RASTA.
    
    
      I see.
    
    
      So, you know, the feature sets we had available. And it was almost always better to combine at the probability level. You know, so we'd run the neural nets and combine the probabilities.
    
    
      I see.
    
    
      O_K.
    
    
      Alright.
    
    
      Oh.
    
    
      Yeah, and it  does  become sort of unwieldy to have these very large feature vectors. And that would
    
    
      Yep.
    
    
      blow up the
    
    
      You'd also have to do some sort of normalization afterwards
    
    
      uh -
    
    
      so that they're uh orthogonal.
    
    
      Right.
    
    
      So you'd wanna do a linear transform also.
    
    
      Right.
    
    
      Um
    
    
      so
    
    
      the - Yeah, and then we could start experimenting a little bit to try to get the ICSI front-end to perform better.
    
    
      Um. And - and as a preliminary just sort of diagnostic experiment we can - I can certainly run a S_R_I system without V_T_L
    
    
      Yep.
    
    
      just uh to get -
    
    
      Wi- without what? Without V_T_L. O_K.
    
    
      Just -
    
    
      Vocal tract thing, yeah.
    
    
      Wh- Yeah.
    
    
      And that - that's quick to do.
    
    
      So.
    
    
      I was thinking about
    
    
      tandem system - Well, let's not talk about it here, but I had some thoughts about the tandem system.
    
    
      
    
    
      yeah so but things are moving ahead, so
    
    
      O_K, should we do digits?
    
    
      Digits. Sure.
    
    
      Do we have any other topics?
    
    
      O_K, let's do them one at a  time  instead of simultaneous since we actually have time.
    
    
      Poetic reading of digits.
    
    
      Oh no. 
    
    
      Transcript L_ one O_ five. 
    
    
      nine four two three two seven seven zero nine nine nine seven 
    
    
      O_ nine three eight zero O_ O_ one 
    
    
      two nine O_ eight five five eight seven seven five 
    
    
      three nine five five seven three four four seven nine 
    
    
      six two seven four two seven three eight O_ 
    
    
      eight six five seven zero nine one zero 
    
    
      three five two three zero nine five three 
    
    
      nine two five O_ two nine three three one two 
    
    
      Transcript L_ one zero eight. 
    
    
      six nine four eight seven three two two six two 
    
    
      five five eight seven eight two five two one O_ one nine 
    
    
      one two nine eight one zero six seven nine three 
    
    
      six five eight one nine five eight one 
    
    
      eight one five two one seven two O_ nine 
    
    
      three seven O_ four seven three two nine 
    
    
      zero one two nine six nine nine one three five five O_ 
    
    
      one three five nine nine five three one one six 
    
    
      Why don't we let Don go first before his battery dies?
    
    
      
    
    
      Mmm, O_K.
    
    
      
    
    
      Transcript L_ one O_ six. 
    
    
      two three eight eight seven seven eight one 
    
    
      eight zero four nine one zero seven two zero five seven two 
    
    
      eight nine eight eight six nine six one eight 
    
    
      two four two eight two six seven eight four seven 
    
    
      nine seven five five seven one five zero two zero 
    
    
      one three O_ nine seven two six two four seven zero eight 
    
    
      two two zero eight five seven nine six two zero 
    
    
      seven eight zero four five three six seven nine 
    
    
      Transcript L_ one O_ nine. 
    
    
      O_ nine O_ seven eight nine eight four three 
    
    
      eight six three six eight six eight five six 
    
    
      seven eight four four six five zero zero 
    
    
      seven six three five one five nine O_ O_ two 
    
    
      seven two O_ five eight O_ five six four seven three four 
    
    
      nine three four O_ one four nine two five 
    
    
      nine six nine eight five seven one O_ five eight 
    
    
      four seven seven zero six five seven  four  seven seven five 
    
    
      Do you wanna say that one again? That last one?
    
    
      Um, why? 
    
    
      Or did - did you correct the whole one?
    
    
      I - yeah, sure. Yeah no I - I gotta write, so - I think. Yeah.
    
    
      
    
    
      Oh he did? Never mind. O_K good. Alright. So. 
    
    
      
    
    
      
    
    
      
    
    
      Alright. Transcript L_ ninety. 
    
    
      two three two one two four zero three 
    
    
      five O_ eight two nine one one two O_ 
    
    
      nine one nine O_ three two five nine two seven 
    
    
      two O_ seven four two seven three one three one 
    
    
      three seven six four four O_ two three nine three 
    
    
      nine five nine three five nine nine seven four three 
    
    
      one nine five one seven eight one three 
    
    
      eight zero three nine one seven nine nine eight O_ seven eight 
    
    
      Transcript L_ one zero seven. 
    
    
      one nine one seven one two nine six nine six eight six 
    
    
      nine seven two nine O_ two four five four 
    
    
      eight O_ nine seven one eight zero zero two 
    
    
      seven six four nine nine one two two six 
    
    
      three zero eight one six four zero one 
    
    
      two one three one eight five two six five seven eight zero 
    
    
      three O_ three eight three three eight seven four 
    
    
      one eight one four two eight four - 
    
    
      Sorry, start over. 
    
    
      one eight one four two eight two four five four 
    
    
      You can really tell from the prosody where it goes.
    
    
      s- meeting. I actually have one more thing that - I don't know if it's - i- if - if it's allowed to - to bring up after the dis-
    
    
      After digits, I don't know.
    
    
      Anyway.
    
    
      But it might be important. For um - So Liz remarked that she had recorded a meeting where
    
    
      Go ahead.
    
    
      it was later found that several of the
    
    
      s- microphones were turned off, um
    
    
      Mm-hmm.
    
    
      and this must become a problem especially with non-speech-meetings.
    
    
      So um
    
    
      is there a way that the software could warn you if it gets zeros from
    
    
      some of the channels, or - ? 
    
    
      Probably. We could probably build that in to the front-end.
    
    
      Because it - you know it's really annoying if you go through all that trouble and then basically the meetings aren't useable because uh even -
    
    
      What are people doing, they're switching their mikes off or something?
    
    
      I don't  know  what they do. Maybe the batteries went dead, or th- they just didn't - they played with the thing and it didn't leave it in the "on" position or whatever.
    
    
      I don't know, uh eh. Fff. 
    
    
      What would you like it to  do  when that happens? 
    
    
      Well, no, if - if you um - I mean obviously you always -
    
    
      I mean, there's never gonna be a signal from all the channels, right? because - or  rarely. 
    
    
      Um.
    
    
      But uh.
    
    
      Well if an unblacked out channel is zero, is actually spitting out zeros, you can be pretty sure it's  off. 
    
    
      Right.
    
    
      Because it doesn't spit out zeros, it spits out epsilons.
    
    
      Right? Cuz there's little background noise. The question is, when the software  detects  it, what do you want it to  do? 
    
    
      Exactly.
    
    
      That's a good  question.  I don't  know.  But is there some - We can collectively think of some - of some mechanism that might reduce the risk of - of just -
    
    
      
    
    
      I mean, it - it - it -
    
    
      We - we  already  have visual feedback, right? You can  see  whether your mike is working or not. Um.
    
    
      Right.
    
    
      Right. So maybe it's just to admonish people to actually look at the screen at the beginning of the meeting to make sure they get a signal.
    
    
      Yep.
    
    
      Test -
    
    
      Turn off the screen saver during the meeting.
    
    
      Tell them to test their mikes, or -
    
    
      Yeah, something.
    
    
      I think they sh-
    
    
      Yeah, I d- I don't know what to do other than -
    
    
      It - it can beep if one of the channels dies while recording.
    
    
      There's no sound out right now.
    
    
      Oh.
    
    
      
    
    
      Never mind.
    
    
      It should give the electric shock to the person recording the meeting.
    
    
      Yep. Yep. Yeah yeah. That would be good. Well, we can think about what to do about it, but it -
    
    
      Oh yeah. That's a good one.
    
    
      Wow, that's not a bad idea.
    
    
      Yeah. O_K.
    
    
      It's pretty clear we  can  detect it, so.
    
    
      Yeah. Alright.
    
    
      O_K. Are we done?
    
    
      Yeah.
    

  


